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Thread: New Orleans holdouts

  1. #1
    Flashaholic Tom_Dunn's Avatar
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    Default New Orleans holdouts

    The prospect of police forceably removing folks from their homes in New Orleans looms larger day by day. The office in charge of the Military troops has stated that such an action would be a Law Enforcement issue, and his troops will not participate. Other groups, such a the Fish and Wildfife officers, have stated that, since they do not work for the police department, they will not participate either. That leaves a classic citizen vs LEO's scenario.
    Seems that Officer Compass, the NO Police Chief, is concerned about "how it would look" on camara when they drag resistors from their homes. Was no concern about "how it would look" when they were plucking people from rooftops, or when they patroled the streets to stop looting. MAYBE the concern has come up now because, unlike the previous stated examples, THIS ACTION JUST AIN'T RIGHT.
    Sad sad situation.....
    "Six foot tall, 285 pounds and skeert of the dark!"

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    It is a very interesting situation, in that constitutionally, those people cannot be removed from their homes unless they are served a warrant for their arrest in connection to a crime (this is my rather limited understanding, anyway). The state cannot easily force a person from their home.

    There is another way that involves condemning their home, but it is a lengthy process. There is the "eminent domain" thing, which would also require some legal acrobatics.

    Scary, scary situation down there.

    Bob

  3. #3
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    That's where martial law comes into play. It's been used many times before during natural disasters to keep people from returning to a disaster area, enforce curfews, etc.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

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    Flashaholic* BIGIRON's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.

  5. #5

    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGIRON
    Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.
    To the best of my knowledge this is true.
    Also if I am not mistaken there is no law that I am aware of that can be used to legally force people from their homes. Of course they will be forced anyway.
    MOLON LABE!

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    Flashaholic* BIGIRON's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    LifeNRA - I agree with you on forced removal. It probably comes under the heading of "we had to destroy this village to save it".

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    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Well, emergency powers can be assumed, legislated or otherwise.

    I got the impression that the National Guard was sort of preparing to assume some police powers if the New Oeleans police crumbled further, but made it clear that they weren't going to do anything other than support unless the situation changed.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    If someone is prepared with 30+ days of supplies and have the means of staying healthy.

    why should they be dragged from their homes into shelters, with better than even chance. they will be worst off.

    if they are in eminant danger of dying, then it would be different.

    most likely anyone that is that well prepared will be armed. would not want to be the one taking them out by force.

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    *Flashaholic* PlayboyJoeShmoe's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    However if you let just one stay, and others find out about it (and they will!) You'd have even more serious trouble.

    I'm not sure how anyone can be sure they will ever see their house or possesions again, and that is perhaps the most frightening thing about being forced out.

    I'm not certain there will EVER be a correct action/answer!
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    Flashaholic* DarkLight's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    I thought once you become a danger to yourself or others "which a holdout obviously is" ....

    You can be arrested/detained/ psych evaled whatever...
    "The world is a grindstone, whether it grinds you down, or polishes you up, is up to you."

  11. #11
    *Flashaholic* James S's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    whats the reason given for wanting to get them out at this point? The water is going down, so they can reach more and more "holdouts" to tell them what is happening and that there wont be water or power for however much longer and no food or other infrastructure for however long. If anybody doesn't want or need their help to survive and doesn't want to leave, who cares if they stay? Are they just concerned with their participating in looting?

    In cases where they suspect the person may not belong where they are, asking for some proof of address might not be out of the question. In cases where the person has no ID or who's ID address doesn't match up with where they are claiming to live, then thats probably enough suspicion to arrest or detain then temporarily. Ship them out to a nice air conditioned and well stocked shelter far enough away before releasing them and they might think twice about going back to continue looting. Obviously here you're relying on the police to tell the difference between squatting looters and a well stocked family desiring to stick it out. That has some bad potential but far less than just trying to force everybody out.

    Another thing to consider is that most of the people in some of these worst affected areas of NO proper didn't own their homes anyway. This was city apartments more than anything else so it's not like the building and property were lost to them. They can get a job and pay someone else for rent elsewhere. So while NO may be their "home" the apartment that they live in does not qualify as all they own in the world and I"m going to defend it with my life. For goodness sake, get out and wait to see what happens. Perhaps in the meantime you'll find a good job in Texas and find a nice place to live and meet some new friends and decide to stay. I only wish more people would get out of that area!
    -James

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    Flashaholic C4LED's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGIRON
    Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.
    Hang on a second. What about during the Civil War?

  13. #13

    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Quote Originally Posted by C4LED
    Hang on a second. What about during the Civil War?
    Actually during the Civil War Abe Lincoln suspended (if that is the right word) the Constitution if I am not mistaken. That is how he kept political prisoners in jail during the war with no charges or at least not any that would have kept them there in the first place. I am not sure if marshall law was ever imposed during or right after the war or not. Do you know if it was or not?
    MOLON LABE!

  14. #14

    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLight
    I thought once you become a danger to yourself or others "which a holdout obviously is" ....

    You can be arrested/detained/ psych evaled whatever...
    I think the law says that you may be evicted for being contageous and/or posing a health risk to others. But it would have to be proven first. I am not sure how a holdout could pose a danger to anyone else but themselves.
    We must be careful letting Big Brother decide what is best for us. Just look at all the innocent people who trusted the Government with their welfare and filed into the Superdome.
    MOLON LABE!

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* BIGIRON's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    C4 - The Posse Comitatus Act came about as a direct result of the military occupation of the south after the civil war. It very specifically prohibits the federal military from enforcing civilian laws. It relates only to federal military, not the non-federalized national guard which can, I think, have police powers by decree of the state govenor or legislature. Been a long time since I had this course, so my memory may be a bit hazy.

  16. #16

    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    BIGIRON,
    Your memory seems very good to me.
    MOLON LABE!

  17. #17
    Flashaholic C4LED's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    I don't know for sure about martial law in the South after the Civil War - it sounds like it was.

    Also, while I don't know the full extent of the Posse Comitatus Act, I always thought that was drafted due to the excesses of the Pinkertons--who had making money as there primary goal no matter who got caught in the crossfire.

  18. #18
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGIRON
    Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.
    Might wanna rethink that. Martial law WAS declared in certain counties in south mississippi after the storm.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* BIGIRON's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    I'm not at all sure about the state of law after the civil war. Maybe a history guy can step in.

    I am sure about the Posse Comitatus Act. The Pinkertons were private cops, not military.

    But keep in mind, as we talk about the letter of the law, what happens in the real world may, and probably will, be a lot different. Part of the problem with the Patriot Act is that it seriously blurs the line between levels of government allowing the federal government ot usurp some of the powers reserved for states by the constitution. Add in the continuing "militarizatuion" of civilian law enforcement and we have the potential for serious abuses.

    The upside of all this is the unification of command. Only one boss - not several as we've just seen demonstrated.

  20. #20
    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    The law does allow, and it is used every day, for an individual to be declared incompetent of making decisions for their own safety.

    That individual may then be detained until he can be evaluated by a mental health professional and his/her status further decided.

    If the powers that be simply declare all those who stay behind as a danger to themselves, and thus obviously incompetent to make appropriate decisions, then their forced removal becomes moot. The government relocates them to where they can be evaluated, at some safe distance, closes the access, and doesn't let them back in. They of course will be found competent, and released, but will not have a way back in.

    Now, as to how they are a danger to others:

    So far as I can tell, the public sewage system in NO is not functioning. That means that right now e. coli are multiplying at incredible rates in all the sewage left in the system, plus what has been left by those still there. Add in a little bit of enterococcus, which in many, if not most cases, is already somewhat antibiotic resistant, and you have a wonderfully deadly waste soup.

    The last estimate I heard was that under best case scenarios, the system would not be restored to prestorm functioning for as long as 36 months or more. If the sewage system isn't functioning, where is the waste going? The ground is saturated in NO in the best of times, right now, !!!!

    That's danger 1.

    Then there becomes the issue of who takes them food and water, because those traveling in and out then become vectors, carrying contagion away.

    That can be mitigated, but cannot be eliminated.

    Then, how do you store food? This isn't a rural area, people in cities don't have facilities to store raw food for prolonged periods, and, in general, probably lack the skills to prepare the food in a way so that it lasts in the humidity and heat of NO.

    Forced evacuation stinks, but sometimes what is right in the long run, hurts in the short run!

    I'm a firm believer that if you own it, you should be allowed to stay and protect it, but as someone on this board already said, extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary actions. This may be one of them.

    Bill
    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
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  21. #21
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Local law enforcement said that people who stay in NO or anywhere else (as the hurricane hit) should write their SSN on their arms and bodies with magic marker.

    yuck

    Body identification is becoming a real problem

    double yuck
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  22. #22
    Flashaholic Tom_Dunn's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Heres a little insight from Yahoo news about the plans made for those who will be forcibly removed from their homes.

    "People removed from their homes would be placed in police custody but not arrested, officials said. They would be taken to military staging areas, then airlifted to shelters in other states."

    Sooooooo, since you ain't ARRESTED you have NO miranda rights. You get herded into a shelter that you did not ask for, and flown to ....to where...Guantanmo Bay? I'd as soon die on my home ground.
    Heres a morbid thought...the cops come to roust you...and you have two, three dogs that you live with...do you abandon the dogs to their own fate...or shoot the poor bastards before you kow-tow to the man?
    "Six foot tall, 285 pounds and skeert of the dark!"

  23. #23
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    If it wasn't so tragic it would be comical.

    People complain that not enough was done to get the people out of New Orleans before the storm. Before the storm no one was even certain it would do all that much damage because it never had before. If thousands refuse to leave two weeks after the storm with human waste and dead bodies stacked high in the streets how many would have stayed even if there had been a bus for everyone prior to the storm? I submit 10's of thousands would have stayed. No doubt it would have been less people staying but I doubt it would have been all that many less.

    What if LEO's would have gone in and forced them to leave prior to the storm and then the storm missed NO? I submit the same people complaining not enough was done would be complaining that too much was done.

    It's a horrible, horrible situation but you can be sure finger pointing and blame will be placed on those in charge no matter what they do or don't do.

    My heart says to let those that want to stay, stay. My brain says force them to leave. At some point the ones that stay, at least many to most of them will cry "uncle" and someone will have to risk infection and death to save the hardhead. How about the ones that wait until they get sick to leave and then wander over to your or my town and spread whatever infectious disease they picked up? You can bet it's happening already so how bad does it need to get before the next step is taken and someone starts using the word quarantine. This stuff is scary and will almost certainly get worse. All those rescuers that go back home all over the country, many will be sick and not know it until a few days after they get home. How many will they infect?

    Maybe the answer is to let them stay and when they are ready to leave quarantine them for two weeks. The thought of that would probably be enough to get many of them to leave now.

  24. #24

    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    MOLON LABE!

  25. #25
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Interesting article. It begs the question, how do you decide who is forcibly removed and who can stay? I suppose an easy way would be, If your domicile had flood waters in it you have to go. I'm sure that wouldn't sit well with many people either but what else can you do in the public's best interest?

    The homes that had water in them for more than 48 hours need to be demolished if they were wood framed. I really can't imagine an exception. A concrete house could be cleaned but wood absorbs the water and filth and over time makes the place unsafe for a number of reasons.

    Tough call, I wish them well.

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    What a mess


    Instead of focusing on what's wrong with all this, pitch in and get behind some positive work.

    Go volunteer at a shelter.

    A local shelter here has about 150 people. If you don't want to volunteer in the actual shelter, they have a laundry sign-up sheet. They're generating about 15-20 large baskets of towels every day. We signed up for an entire day's worth later this month.

    Donate money. I would say that money given to the churches involved in this relief effort will be FAR better and more-efficiently spent than red cross donations.

    Offer to house a refugee family. I think the website is houseshare.com or something like that.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  27. #27
    Flashaholic C4LED's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Quote Originally Posted by LifeNRA
    Actually during the Civil War Abe Lincoln suspended (if that is the right word) the Constitution if I am not mistaken. That is how he kept political prisoners in jail during the war with no charges or at least not any that would have kept them there in the first place. I am not sure if marshall law was ever imposed during or right after the war or not. Do you know if it was or not?
    To answer your question, it looks like it's fair to say that Lincoln imposed martial law. This may effectively be the same thing as suspending the Constitution. The article below goes in to more detail. Further, martial law was instituted in Hawaii following the attack on Perl Harbor. Finally, this article states " Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable."

    Here's the article:
    ------------------

    What Is Martial Law?
    And is New Orleans under it?

    http://slate.msn.com/id/2125584/

    By Keelin McDonell
    Posted Friday, Sept. 2, 2005, at 2:04 PM PT

    On Tuesday reports began circulating that New Orleans officials had put the flood-ravaged city under martial law. The attorney general's office of Louisiana quickly issued a denial. Confusion persisted, however, after White House press secretary Scott McClellan told a group of journalists on Wednesday that "martial law has been declared in Mississippi and Louisiana." Yesterday National Guard Lt. Gen H. Steven Blum sought to set the record straight, saying, "This is not, as it has been erroneously reported, martial law." What is martial law? And who can declare it?

    Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and institute curfews, among other emergency powers.

    In practice, however, martial law has been all but barred since the late 19th century. During the Civil War, President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and set up military courts in several states in the South and Midwest. Many at the time felt that Lincoln had superseded his authority, and in 1878 Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids the military from performing civilian law enforcement without congressional approval.

    The Posse Comitatus Act effectively limited the president's power to declare martial law, but it did not entirely end it. After the bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941, the governor of Hawaii called for martial law. President Roosevelt approved the motion, and the islands remained under military authority until October of 1944.

    Additionally, governors can still request that the president immediately dispatch federal troops to assist police during emergencies. This happened during two notable instances of rioting in recent history—at the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago and after the verdict was handed down in the Rodney King trial in Los Angeles in 1992. Neither instance constituted martial law (or violated Posse Comitatus) since federal troops were supporting and not supplanting local leaders.

    During the 1987 Iran-Contra scandal, it was revealed that Oliver North had helped FEMA draft plans to overrule Posse Comitatus and impose martial rule if a major instance of civil unrest occurred. More recently, civil libertarians have worried that the military may become the de facto enforcer of law if the United States is attacked.

    The Katrina relief effort includes military assistance, but it is not martial law. National Guard units are acting under the direction of governors, and federal troops are providing humanitarian relief. Neither of these violates Posse Comitatus. While martial law has not been imposed, a state of emergency has been declared in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida, signaling that some civil liberties, such as the right to congregate, may be limited because of extreme conditions.

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* BIGIRON's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Good article.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Interesting article. It begs the question, how do you decide who is forcibly removed and who can stay?
    It is simple, there is no legal basis for forcibly removing anyone.

  30. #30
    *Flashaholic* PlayboyJoeShmoe's Avatar
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    Rant Re: New Orleans holdouts

    Stinks!

    But I CAN see reasons why it should be done. Confusion!
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