Cavers - "White LED's Suck..."

cue003

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Interesting discussion. Some good info on timelines/LED/batteries etc.

I would like to hear what some of the cavers (Dar, Jtice, and PeLu) have to say after reading the document. Especially those that have used several versions/types of headlamps/cave lamps

Curtis
 
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jtice

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eh its all hogwash ! :p

nah, its like everythign else, its personal opinion.
We have had this discussion before about general use, and what color, or BIN is best.
Some still like the incans cuz they have alittle wider wavelength, which isnt bad, and they are more of a warm color, better matching the suns light.

I agree that I have seen warm toned leds keep better color retention, and light things up better, in certain cituations.

But I cant stand orange incans.
My buddy had his Dou with us, and all I kept seeing was this anouying orage artifact filled spot :green:

Meanwhile, I had my brand new Stenlight (www.stenlight.com) with dual 3W leds,
blasting out a nice flood of even light.

I would NEVER use an incan in a cave.
I dont trust them, I have had too many break bulb filiments when dropped.
The LEDs are more effecienct, which means you gett longer runtime, and dont have to carry huge battery packs.

I think alot of what that articale was also saying, is that they werent getting the shear output they wanted.
Well that is all changing now, there are plenty of led lights totally killing incans their size.

I will admit, WHITE WHITE leds dont have the perfect color, but neither do orange incans.

~John
 

Silviron

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I don't do much underground anymore, but I'd have been willing to pay a thousand bucks (or even more) back in the days I spent literally half my life underground, for the LED headlamp system I finished building last month.

Guess it is a matter of taste, but I think LEDs are a godsend for underground work.
 

Solstice

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I've never gone caving (I hope to some day) but it sounds like this guy takes too hard a line on white LEDs. He glosses over the benefits (as he does with the negative of incans- I think a broken bulb would be really, really bad) and stresses the need for over 50 lumens of light. For one thing, 50 lumens has already been surpassed using white LEDs and I suspect that within a year or two the 50 lumen mark will be possible with far less battery consumption (greater efficiency).

Irrespective of the 50 lumens for caving benchmark, I'm surprised this guy doesn't endorce the small LED torches of today for everything other than seeing vast distances in the cave. I would think something as simple as an Ultra-G would be invaluable for many tasks inside a cave.

I personally find the light emmited from LEDs to be the most ideal in total dark situations- it is percieved as much brighter than when competeing with ambient light.
 

Ocelot

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Bad assumptions in the article...

I'm a caver, and I've been caving for 23 years now.

While fluorescents are still quite a bit more efficient than LEDs, the problem with them is that they cannot be dimmed. Another commercial fluorescent caving light, built by Doug Strait (who is on Candlepower forums), had two brightness levels, with the minimum being around 2-3W if I remember correctly. Like a halogen bulb, they have a minimum power requirement to work properly. This was for a CCFL.

This meant that someone going on a long underground camping trip had to take quite a few batteries along with them. In addition, the light was a good area light, but not so good for looking far down a passage. CCFL's are hard to focus into a beam, since they are usually a bent tube or a single straight tube (not a point source).

Note that his article goes into lots of detail, not much of which relates to why white LEDs suck, then his "conclusion" is that they suck.

I've personally built a number of caving lights over the years, using various chopper circuits, including some stock & custom designs based off of Willie Hunt's designs for halogen/krypton/xenon bulbs. I have also designed my own CCFL fluorescent caving light, and a number of LED lights. LEDs rock over all the other options.

The author seems to think you need 50 lumens *all the time*, yet I find that laughable. Passage sizes/reflectivity changes drastically as you travel through the cave, and in different caves. Lava tubes in the northwest are notoriously dark (light suckers), whereas other caves are swathed in white gypsum and have high reflectivity. To say you always need 50lm is ridiculous.

I just got back from an expedition in Peru, where I used a 5W Luxeon headlight. Passage dimensions ranged up to 30m wide by 15-20m high, and I usually used 1.5W or less. For about 50 hours underground, I used less than 8 AA lithium batteries. I say "less than" because I changed the first set when they wouldn't go above ~2W output anymore, and the second set never got more than about 1/2 depleted. Try that with a CCFL light...

Scott
 

hank_moon

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jtice said:
I would NEVER use an incan in a cave.
I dont trust them, I have had too many break bulb filiments when dropped.

Never say never, matey! I know folks whose depth perception is totally screwed by LED light. Hopefully some of the warmer variants will address this problem. Also, bet you'd use an incan to spot up a tall dome, eh? Even the best of the best LED spotters can't throw like good ol' incan...

Many advantages to LED for cavers, though - no doubt! I only use incan for occasional spotting these days...
 

hank_moon

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Re: Bad assumptions in the article...

The author seems to think you need 50 lumens *all the time*, yet I find that laughable

Agreed. For all we know, the author is 80 years old. How much light is needed depends on many factors, including the eyesight of the subject, the color and reflective properties of the object, relative humidity of the air, and so on. My guess is the article was written mostly out of curmugeonly contrariness...
 

jtice

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Re: Bad assumptions in the article...

I've had 10 lumens be PLENTY of light in small passages.

One of my first caving trips, I took a modded TWAK 3W mag mod.
It was TOO bright alot of the time, the hotspto would shine on a wall 2 feet from me an blind me.
Dimmable lights are VERY handy for maintainning night vision.

Hank moon,
Im not saying I have never used an incan, I ment as a main hand light or headlamp.
A spotlight or something like that is different.
But NEVER as a main personal light.

Here the 35W HID X990 in action :duck:
IMG_9834.sized.jpg


Even then, I was scrared to death of dropping it. :green:
 

Anglepoise

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I am not a caver, but was amazed when I made a comparison of two Lux III lights outside in a rural situation. There was a huge difference in the contrast and reflected colour of the illuminated objects.

I do not have the bin numbers handy but one was 'slightly blue/white' and the other could definitely be called 'slightly green'.

The 'green' LED was so far superior in actually illuminating the objects and the perceived contrast and colors. I was amazed, as were the three family members that saw the comparison.
 

hank_moon

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Re: Bad assumptions in the article...

Even then, I was scrared to death of dropping it.

Nice pic!

yeah, bet that thing cost some coin...still, i started out caving w/incan and never had any problems. You carry a few spare bulbs with your spare batteries. Never broke a bulb in 20 yrs of caving...had a few burn out, but that's about it. Mostly use LED now, though...
 

jtice

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Re: Bad assumptions in the article...

hank,

hmmm from your sigline, I assume you work for Petzl? :)

"""Mostly use LED now, though..."""
Well, of corse :p

Yea, the X990 isnt cheap, or easy to lug around in a cave, only took it that one time.
it was fun, was gonna use it to "paint" some rooms, but really, its TOO bright lol.

You will probably get a kick out of this post I did.
its a writeup about my last big caving trip.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/90140

~John
 

hank_moon

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Re: Bad assumptions in the article...

hmmm from your sigline, I assume you work for Petzl? :)
well, if you call this working :sssh:


You will probably get a kick out of this post I did. its a writeup about my last big caving trip.
read most of it and looked at all the pictures. Hey, was that you with the king of delicate incans, the gas lantern? :)
 

Ocelot

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Re: Bad assumptions in the article...

hank_moon said:
You carry a few spare bulbs with your spare batteries. Never broke a bulb in 20 yrs of caving...had a few burn out, but that's about it. Mostly use LED now, though...

Or a lot of spare bulbs, if you have a constant voltage power source.

I used a voltage regulator circuit in Lechuguilla, running a 1.2W xenon bulb. People running 2.8W halogens actually laughed at my "wimpy" light at the beginning of the week-long trip. I told them wait a bit.

After a day, my light wasn't that much dimmer than theirs. After two days, my light was brighter than theirs. I used 4 D cells for the entire week underground, and had a brighter light than they did most of the time. The drawback was that I went through bulbs quite quickly, because when run at their rated voltage, their life is only about 12-15 hours. If you don't use a regulator, the voltage quickly goes below the rated value and the bulb life goes WAY up. I think I went through 6 bulbs on one weeklong trip and had only one spare left...

Nowadays I can get by with 2C cells for a week and still have a brighter light, and have LOTS of light when I need it. That is the advantage of LEDs.

Scott
 

David_Campen

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I think alot of what that articale was also saying, is that they werent getting the shear output they wanted.
Well that is all changing now, there are plenty of led lights totally killing incans their size.
I am still waiting for an LED handlamp with the formfactor and throw of my UK4AA with 4-watt incandescent bulb. My headlamps (Petzl DUO) have been converted to LED (Petzl 8-LED modules) and my backup handlamps are also LEDs but I haven't found an LED lamp to replace the UK4AA/4-watt incandescent.

Cons of the LEDs are that they seem to interfere with depth perception and color perception. Also, it is true that LEDs, on new batteries, aren't any more efficient than incans.

Pros of LEDs are increased reliability and the ability to run at different power levels; the 3 power levels of the DUO 8-LED unit are useful in conserving battery life. Also, as the batteries are depleted, the LEDs can continue giving useful light while an incan would be nothing more than a dull red glow.
 

jtice

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hank,

heh, yea the gas Colmen lantern is hard to beat for flood lumen output :grin:
and no, it wasnt me holding it, I cant stand lugging that hot thing around LOLOL

David,

headlamp you say !!!??? :grin2:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/88744&highlight=stenlight
www.stenlight.com

Ask, and you shall recieve.
Hows up to 140 lumens sound?
with 2 fraen LP optics it would be a throw monster.
I have two 25 degree flood optics in mine

~John
 
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Dr_Joe

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hank_moon said:
Never say never, matey!.......... Also, bet you'd use an incan to spot up a tall dome, eh? Even the best of the best LED spotters can't throw like good ol' incan...
QUOTE]

Try a Space Needle II (for throw) and you'll never reach for an incan again :grin2:
 

SilverFox

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I originally posted the link to this article thinking it was a bit outdated, but come to find out it was published 9/12/05.

It looks like the folks at MIT are a bit behind the learning curve... :nana:

His battery prices seem a bit off. $3 for a CR123 would drive the price of running a white LED light up quite a bit.

I wonder why they don't mention the Li-Ion 18650 cells?

Tom
 

jtice

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Lets face it,
we know a hell of alot more than the average buyer.
and a good bit more than most that are interested in lights :naughty:

For all we know, these guys are grabbing led lights off shelves are local stores.
With exagerated and out right false advertising on the packages.

I have seen alot of Luxeon lights, that we would consider crap,,,
have the best description you have ever seen printed on the front.
"blinding bright" super white" blah blah blah
meanwhile it has a pee green 1W led clone in it. :green:
 
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