Anyone fear high natural gas prices or shortages of natural gas this winter?

I dont know about you guys, but I fear this winter. I have free gas appliances and a shortage would leave me ice cold. I have a small milk crate electric heater for a back up. I also have an electric blanket and a jon e pocket heater, not to mention the disposable ones.

Anyone got any alternative heating solutions incase this turns out to be true for an apartment dweller without a car? I was thinking of buying a oil lantern and some of the fuel, maybe some candles. I would just confine myself to the bed room and seal it off. I would use the small heater and regular bulbs vs the CF ones as they would generate more heat.

What is driving up gasoline/heating oil/jet A prices is a lack of refining capacity. Because of envirornmental issues, no refinery has been built in the USA in about 30 years! Natural gas and coal require no refininery, so what drives the price up are users who can use more than one fuel type being driven from refined products to unrefined products. So Natural Gas prices are going to go up, but probably nothing like heating oil or Gasoline prices have gone up. Electricity tends to be closely tied to the price of Natural Gas and coal. Traditionally Electricity costs about 3 times as much as natural gas per unit of energy.
Gas is priced per therm which is 100,000 BTU IIRC, that is about 30 Kilowatt hours of electricity.

Yeah, but mattheww50, the past few winters natural gas and heating oil prices went through the roof while gasoline and electricity stayed leveled. Dont anyone remember gas and heating oil prices shooting up last year and the year before during the winter?

Maybe I am worried for nothing?

cobb said:

I was thinking of buying a oil lantern and some of the fuel, maybe some candles. I would just confine myself to the bed room and seal it off. I would use the small heater and regular bulbs vs the CF ones as they would generate more heat.

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Cobb,

I hope you don't mean to burn hydrocarbons such as oil or kerosene or candle wax in a sealed room for too long a period. The carbon monoxide (and dioxide) would build up and might make you ill, if not worse.

Of course, heating by electic heaters and light bulbs won't have that danger.

Paul

i very seldem use heat im in ga .it realy never gets below 20f here i just wrap up in electric blanket i do have space heater for bathroom cause showering but i only run it while im in there. this house is better insulated so im sure i can go with out heat or ill put it on like 45f so pipes dont freeze

Approximately 20% of our (US) electricity is generated from Natural Gas... So, don't plan on using electric heat as a way around this problem.

-Bill

Natural gas here has gone up 60% in the last year edging out gasoline by 10%. Right now off peak electricity (1/2 price at night 2x price during the day) is cheaper then nat gas and gas is going up again next month. Typically electricity is about 2.5 to 3 times the cost of electricity. One of the big reasons is more and more natural gas fired electrical generation plants being built. They are the few things that you can build now and as power consumption continues to grow all they can do is add nat gas plant, so it drives up the cost of nat gas. Also we get a large chunt of nat gas from the gulf, and of course were aren't getting it right now.

Cobb I would highly doubt we would run out of nat gas, but if for some reason we did, your best bet would be an electric heater in your room with the door shut. You really don't want to "burn" any fuel inside a house or apartment.

I read somewhere that we have had a disruption in supply secondary to the hurricanes. I don't recall the number, but it was something like billions of cubic feet "lost". Not entirely sure what that meant, but it didn't sound good.

They stated the price for natural gas will be 47% higher (the only number I remembered) this winter season.

Bob

The pacific northwest gets natural gas from Canada. The price is taking a big jump this year, due to higher supplier costs that hit last year. Oregon's natural gas companies have to get permission from a the Public Utility Commision before they can raise the price, and it took them awhile to get it approved. The reason the gas companies offered to the PUC was the heavier industrial demands for natural gas as industries shift away from the undependable supply of gasoline.

Dont worry guys. I am not going to use a fueled heater indoors without any ventlation. I do entertain the idea of a candle or oil lamp. I know from my experience smoking on my folks porch earlier this year at night, i was impressed at the light my lighter gave off. I know my folks use oil lamps when the power fails, where as i use leds. Most of the leds Ive looked at lately are brighter with less run time. The heat would be given off would be a bonus if its cold out and I already had a gas shortage and a power shortage. Dont worry, I was unable to find an electric heater, oil lamp, scented oil or the jupitor led lanturn at target yesterday.

My VA Dominion Power is like 5.67 cents a kilowatt a few months a year and like 5.68 the other months. Use to be cheaper. They had to get their rate hike approved earlier this year. I just dont understand the off peak thing you guys mention, since I pay the same regardless of the time of day power is used. Its jut a hundreths of a cent cheaper during the summer months.

Cobb, First, wow those are GREAT electric rates. What is your gas rate per them? It might be cheaper to go electric anyway.

If you know how much you're paying for all the energy you purchase you can compare them here
http://www.hearth.com/articles/47_0_1_0_M7.html

Anyway time of use or on peak / off peak are rates you can usually get through your power company and you get power for a cheaper rate during the evening/night hours and pay more for the power during the day or peak usage times.

Not sure of the gas rate. I live in richmond va if that helps. I get free gas for heat, water and stove. Its included in the rent.

Who knew electric was 100% efficient, at least according to that chart. I thought electric was the least efficient. I know on an episode of modern marvels they said it takes like a pound of coal to make a few hundred watts of power, it use to be ten pounds of coal, but improvements lessen that.

Not sure about the off peak thing. I live in an apartment. I think my folks had one of those controllers on their hot water heater that was suppose to reduce their power bill. I dont recall anything about an off peak rate. Something to look into if your car takes 27 kilowatts or you have two cars that take 27 kilowatts to recharge. I use anywhere from 180-650kilowatts a month. Cheapest power bil 14 dollars, most expensive 65.

My wife and I have been considering two more energy related house improvements now for about a year:

1. Insulating window "blankets" or double cell blinds

http://www.1windowquilts.com/

I guess this winter we will do one or the other. Most of our windows are on the south facing side of the house and we got the best double pane, low e windows we could get at the time (Pella). The house stays very comfortable, in fact, we have to crack a window on a really sunny day no matter how cold it might be outside (we should have designed some thermal mass into our home to soak up excess heat from winter solar gain).

2. Installing a high efficiency fireplace insert or adding a separate wood burning stove

http://www.lopistoves.com/product.asp?dept_id=5&sku=34

We live in about 4 acres of forest and just keeping up with dead limbs and trees keeps us comfortably in firewood. We only have a fireplace with glass doors for now and we've never used it as a serious heat source. Maybe this winter we will.

I've read that heating bills are expected to rise 70% this winter.

Electricity is 100% effecient at the point of use for heat... And, you are only paying for the losses from the meter to the heater (all the other losses, generation, line loss, etc. are built into the rate you are paying).

Natural gas (as an example), burning it puts 80% heat in your house and 20% up the flue. And here you are paying for both the 80% heat and the 20% flue.

-Bill

cobb,

I'm only an hour or so north of you. I also have Dominion VA Power. They quote a "price to compare" of 5.96 cents per kwh on our bill. Of course by the time you add "distribution service" and "electricity supply service" and taxes, you will end up paying much more per kilowatt hour. I'm not sure but those costs may be fixed. Their price to compare is stated in case you want to change electric suppliers now that deregulation is at hand.

Since my gas bills have been increasing for the last few winters (and I have a condensing gas furnace and well insulated small house) I have been considering using some electric heat.

We definitely don't have time of day metering available yet.

If you have Columbia Gas of Va, they are quoting $1.25130 per ccf for the current gas cost.

As far as keeping warm, this winter I will be wearing more sweaters. I know I'll have short sleeves at work because they keep it too warm in the winter. Sometimes I have to wear a light jacket in the summer. They can't seem to get the temperature even in the offices.

Glad to see CPF'ers are energy conscious and not wasting energy like many Americans.

Might turn off the central heat (oil) entirely and just heat whatever rooms we're in with ceramic heaters. I'm pretty good at dealing with cold anyway. One time when the furnace quit and it was in the 30s outside the house still stayed pretty comfortable.

Interesting! I was contemplating starting a thread this weekend about what everyone pays for electricity.

I have a gas furnace and my gas bill this past winter went through the roof. I would have to look at my old bills but a rough est. would be over 60%. And theyre predicting nat gas prices will probably close to double this winter

I too had read that a lot of electrical generation plants are now gas fired. But, I was calculating what my little 1500 watt space heater uses per 24 hour period and I would tend to agree that electricity is probably less expensive to heat with. At least for the present.

BB, never thought of it like that. I thought using electricity to heat a wire was the most wasteful thing you can use electricity for and if you wanted heat with electricity your most efficient bet was to use a heat pump.

h_nu, that sounds right, rate wise. It use to be 4 cents and went up. I tried counting kilowatts and saving power, estimating power bill, but it never worked out. Seems the service fee is about the same as the kilowatt usage fee. There is like a min of 10 bucks service charge. Seems the ball is in their court as it only cost a bit more from initial service to live comfortability. I use to sweat it out in the summer, listen to my radio than watch tv, watch my electric use, but found it was about 20 bucks more to live comfortability during the summer and saved a buck to lsiten to radio vs watch tv. My AC is where all my electric goes and thats only when I am here. It goes off when I leave. Its a drafty apartment and during the summer the college students leave, so I have to cool my apartment and the walls and floors of a few empty rooms. When the students return, I notice a ten dollar drop in my bill and its only 79-80 degrees inside regardless of outside temp.

I have no idea how much gas i use as its one meter for all 4. I have a gas stove, but dont use it. Too many blow outs when the stove pilot light doesnt light the stove til it fills with gas. THe burners need to be lit with a lighter even though they had working pilot lights. I just use my microwave for hot water and a small toaster oven for cooking.

The past few work places Ive been too are hot in the summer and humid, cold and dry in the winter.

jtr1962, my folks use to block off vents in rooms to save power. THe HVAC guy told them that was not a good idea. I close off a few in my small apartment and it seems to help the place cool down quicker and nice to feel cool air blowing on me or hot air depending on season. We use a wood stove til the exhaust was damaged in a storm, then keroscene and now a quartz heater in the family room of my folks house for extra heat. We cut the hvac back.

bhds, you run 1500 watts? I am afraid myself, thats I think the max a circuit can handle. My idea was to use two heaters on low speed or 700 watts or on different circuits. My little heater blows the same fan speed rather on low or high. Just makes a ton more heat on high than low.

cobb said:

BB, never thought of it like that. I thought using electricity to heat a wire was the most wasteful thing you can use electricity for and if you wanted heat with electricity your most efficient bet was to use a heat pump.

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Cobb,

You are not wrong... I was trying to give a quick "technically correct" answer to the general question—which was providing useful BTU's vs Meter/billing Costs to the end consumer. For electricity, there are very little losses between the meter and the heater, but for natural gas (as an example) 20% of the natural gas meter costs go up the flue. But, overall, natural gas is still much cheaper than electric resistance heating for the average consumer (from the earlier link, an electric "BTU" is roughly three times the delivered cost of an equivalent gas "BTU"—even accounting for the 20% loss for natural gas.).

Regarding your specific question, a heat pump does generate more BTU's of heat, than does electricity heating a hot wire alone (down into the 40's F, if I recall correctly). Below that, resistance heating ends up being just about as efficient as a heat pump (you can easily get "heat" from warm air—but it is very difficult to get heat from cold air).

In the end what is most efficient and cost effective depends on what you are trying to do and what environment you are doing it in.

For example, burning wood to run a steam powered blender may make some cost sense-- if you are already trying to heat your home with wood in northern Minnesota in the winter--however, it would not make sense to do this in Texas in the summer.

-Bill

I keep my furnace set at 65 when I'm away at work and turn it up to 68-70 when I'm home. I dont turn it down at night. I hate getting up in the morning to a cold house. I had thought about turning it down a couple degrees this winter and getting a bigger space heater. Maybe one of those big a-- radar dish types that they have blasting in costco all the time:sweat: Unfortunately I think they run at over 2000 watts.

Cobb
The 1500 watt space heater I use in my computer room. My gas furnace actually went on the fritz 2 weeks ago and I tried using the space heater in my living room one night. Heater on high, tv on, dvd player on, 300 watt halogen floor lamp on. All on a 15 amp breaker
Any need to finish the story? I thought not