Does a Group Buy organiser keep best lights? :)

Just had a thought... when someone organises a group buy (and he happens to be a perfectionist when it comes to the whitest and brightest), do you think he will sieve through the whole batch and pick out the best light(s) for himself? (assuming items are not sealed)

No offence to any group buy organisers (u guys are doing a great job!)

Any thoughts/comments?

There was a similar jeers thread about rigging the Luxeon lottery, it's in the CnJ section. General consensus is that it's unethical at best.. if you can find the thread, it's worth reading.

LEDcandle said:

Just had a thought... when someone organises a group buy (and he happens to be a perfectionist when it comes to the whitest and brightest), do you think he will sieve through the whole batch and pick out the best light(s) for himself? (assuming items are not sealed)

No offence to any group buy organisers (u guys are doing a great job!)

Any thoughts/comments?

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Why not? He/She organized the buy. He/She is going thru the aggravation. He/She is putting up with the constant changes in orders. He/She is obviously assisting the buyers, otherwise they're be no need for a groupbuy.

Only if the others in the Group Buy are aware and accept that as a condition.

If he does it without notification, then I would certainly second KevinL's feelings.

Bill

LEDcandle said:

Just had a thought... when someone organises a group buy (and he happens to be a perfectionist when it comes to the whitest and brightest), do you think he will sieve through the whole batch and pick out the best light(s) for himself? (assuming items are not sealed)

No offence to any group buy organisers (u guys are doing a great job!)

Any thoughts/comments?

Click to expand...

At least that way all the lights would get tested for obvious defects...

I wouldn't object if the best went to the GB organizer and maybe a few active helpers, but the entire lot should not be sorted with the aim of large-scale favoritism towards this community as a whole.

Also, I believe there could be some assurance that lights not working on arrival can be easily replaced, without recipients having to deal directly with the manufacturer themselves.

I can say for a fact that I haven't been doing that with my 35,000 mcd group buy. For starters, to start measuring each LED when I'm dealing with hundreds would be too time consuming. Second, the consistency among these seems to be pretty good so the better ones might be at best 10% brighter than the worst ones, on average probably only 5% better. It's not really worth my while hand-picking the best ones for myself under those circumstances. As a matter of ethics I wouldn't do it anyway. What I sell is representative of what I keep for myself. Even with regard to tints these have been very consistent. I had one batch of 200 that was a little bluer than the rest but not enough that I heard any complaints.

What I have done is to take out the few pieces where I thought something was wrong. I had a few LEDs with either extra resin or some missing. Probably still 100% functional but visually defective so they stayed with me. I would also hold back anything which looked too dim but so far as I said these have been very consistent with regards to brightness. Some ad hoc testing of the visually worst ones gave me around 31,500 mcd at 30 mA while the best were in the 37,000 mcd area (over spec!) at the same current. That's a less than 10% variation from the mean in either direction.

I suppose the same line of thought can be applied to other group buys as well. For example, if someone sells batteries, do they keep the ones with the highest capacities for themselves? Again, given the amount of testing involved (way more time for batteries than for lights), I doubt it's worthwhile, especially when dealing with cells which vary little from batch to batch. You might end up handpicking cells which are 1% or 2% better. Not worth the time investment involved in my opinion.

I suppose the same line of thought can be applied to other group buys as well. For example, if someone sells batteries, do they keep the ones with the highest capacities for themselves? Again, given the amount of testing involved (way more time for batteries than for lights), I doubt it's worthwhile, especially when dealing with cells which vary little from batch to batch. You might end up handpicking cells which are 1% or 2% better. Not worth the time investment involved in my opinion.

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Truly dedicated obsessive compulsives may disagree...in fact I think they actually 'enjoy' endlessly fiddling over such minute details. IMHO, life's too short for that, eh?

If nobody is notified of the underlying circumstances before the group buy then it is theft. You are getting a product that didn't make first cut.
Also, if they were sampled then they are no longer new, are they? Not only are you getting a used product, but one that was used and then set aside because it is not as good as the rest.
So, the bottom line is if that were to take place than the person who organized the group buy has assumed that you would be happy paying their price for a used, substandard product, personally, I find that insulting.
I think the guys that do take the time to do these buys for us are above that kind of behaviour, I have found that most guys who don't practice decent trading skills don't last long around here, as traders.
If I found out the manager at Wall Mart tried all the electric razors prior to selling them so he could have the cleanest cut, I would be pretty pissed off. Now if the sign on the shelf indicated they had been operated (even if just for one second)and the price reflected those circumstances, then I could make the choice myself, and I like choices.

I agree with bwaites (and others): unless it is stated and known and above board, it is dishonest and is probably a form of theft.

I have never done a true "group buy", but I have had literally hundreds of Carley 1940's and Welch Allyn lamps and various NiMH cells and packs go through my hands, and as it turns out, I have found that I always end up stuck with the sub-standard items because I don't feel right about sending them out to anyone. And on top of all of that, I can't seem to draw a line in the sand and say "this XXX is mine." You might think that I'm sitting pretty on an M6-R and USL and Tiger85 and Tiger11. Nope. I just can't set something aside and decide that other people who have paid money for my mods will just have to wait.

I am hoping that when all is said and done with the M6-R project that I will have a pack (or even *gasp* two) that I get to keep, along with a USL.

Just let ME organize all groupbuys from now on...don't own any meters and would be too stupid to use them properly if I did!

damn, lost my post to them browser hangs again..

generally, I would think the organiser 'deserves' the best lights, especially if he's put in a lot of effort, but it would be nice to declare it first.

Personally, I'd probably set aside a box as "mine", then move on to check the rest for defects.

But it'll be kinda hard to declare upfront something like "Groupbuy for xxxx light. Pls note I will pick out the best lights for myself and you guys will get the rest. Hahah "

i wouldnt, I either would not test each item, assuming it worked.
or i would Chuck the bad ones, or use them in something else where its not as critical (area lighting) . although ya all would be paying for what it all costs, cept for the ones i keep that are good.

last group by i was in worked out great, i got MORE than i expected.
the bigger problem i see with them is TIME. and getting IN on it, and being Back in on it when the payments are needed, etc. i would prefer to buy what already exists (psudo group buy) and would prefer to have the items before distributing myself.

but that is just me, whatever anybody else does is thier problem, if they are fly-by-nite then that is what they will be. and if they arent then that oppertunities will exist for them in the future.

I see nothing wrong for the sponsor of a group buy to pick out a light or two for himself and get a decent one. I figure it perhaps goes too far when they try out every single one of the bunch to get the absolute best just for that purpose. If they are trying them all out to make sure nobody gets mailed a defective one that is another situation.
I certainly would rather risk getting a light a little less *perfect* than one completely defective. Imagine getting your brand new *untested* light and it doesn't work at all.

What I have seen is people buying a lot of a bunch of lights from somewhere and cherry picking the best few and dumping the leftovers here on cpf at a modest profit.

Essentially it comes down to...... let the buyer beware. Unless there is a good reason for *testing* every light I figure you test a few to see if they are all about the same and then conclude all should be ok.

Quick question....don't some of the people who organise group buys, make some kinda profit from it already? why do they get to pick out the best item too?? :shrug: Isn't that a little selfish?

Actually, most of the people who have organized group buys don't make anything or make VERY little from them.

Even those who have sold runs of lights like the USL, Polaris, M6-R packs, etc. have made little on them, especially if you calculate the hours spent on them. I think Jim calculated my hourly profit at 17 cents per hour on the USL project

Generally group buys are run as a service to the members here, and no real profit is made.

As I said above, I see no problem, IF and ONLY IF, everyone is aware that the organizer will keep the lights he picks as best and if that is a relatively small fraction of the buy.

Bill

A lot of times the "profit" from the group buy is that you break even financially and end up keeping a few of whatever it is you sold. In general once you count the hours keeping track of orders, testing the product, packing it, mailing it, etc. versus the value of whatever you ended up with for "free" you're making less than a buck an hour. Or at least that's how it's coming out for me. I've even heard that sometimes people organizing group buys end up with unexpected expenses and end up losing money. Most of the people who do this just do it to help the CPF community and maybe get a few parts in the process. The community benefits from these group buys in that they can order only a few of something while still benefitting from the savings of buying in bulk.

Now I do have a few more things in the works which I might sell here and which would earn me a decent profit, but these are electronics products I designed and will build myself. There's a lot of value added there, and I feel I'm entitled to make a good profit. That's a whole different animal from running a group buy where you're just reselling stuff.

group buy where you're just reselling stuff.

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This is the kind of group buy I was refering to when I asked about making a decent profit from it.

Usually I think the middleman dealing directly with a manufacturer would have room to make some kinda profit.

jtr1962 said:

A lot of times the "profit" from the group buy is that you break even financially and end up keeping a few of whatever it is you sold. In general once you count the hours keeping track of orders, testing the product, packing it, mailing it, etc. versus the value of whatever you ended up with for "free" you're making less than a buck an hour. Or at least that's how it's coming out for me. I've even heard that sometimes people organizing group buys end up with unexpected expenses and end up losing money. Most of the people who do this just do it to help the CPF community and maybe get a few parts in the process. The community benefits from these group buys in that they can order only a few of something while still benefitting from the savings of buying in bulk.

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i think that would be the main point.
i am a big enough cheapskate, that if i could get 40% off by buying 100 , getting one, and selling the rest for what i paid , i would ponder doing just that.

then also there is that stuff that you can only even get it at ALL if you buy 1000-5000 pieces of it, good time for a group buy, or get stuck with 999 that you dont even need.

if someone goes through the trouble of organizing it, hey I am fine that the person takes the best LED - mostly I dont think they make a profit on a group buy.

And hey, imagine doing a groupbuy for a Luxeon V Stars, lets say 100 units. And you see ONE X-Bin in there. What would you do?

mobile1 said:

if someone goes through the trouble of organizing it, hey I am fine that the person takes the best LED - mostly I dont think they make a profit on a group buy.

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I think we all more or less agreed that there's nothing wrong with that so long as you announce your intentions in advance. After all, running a group buy is a lot of work, so cherry-picking the best few lights for yourself is small compensation. It only becomes a problem if you keep so many of the best ones for yourself that everyone else ends up with something less than they're paying for.

In my current 35,000 mcd group buy, I'm finding so little variation between the best and worst units that doing something like this would probably be a complete waste of my time.