How is it really in Paris and Denmark (Riots)?

We have read about the, supposed, problems in New Orleans after Katrina... However, I have read little in the US press about what is currently happening in France, and to a lesser extent, in Denmark over the last week or so...

Police Find Bomb-Making Factory in Paris

PARIS (AP) - Ten nights of urban unrest that brought thousands of arson attacks on cars, nursery schools and other targets from the Mediterranean to the German border reached Paris where at least 28 cars were burned overnight in the French capital, government officials said Sunday. Police found a gasoline bomb-making factory in a southern suburb of the city, with more than 100 bottles, gallons of fuel and hoods for hiding rioters' faces, a senior Justice Ministry official said Sunday.

Six youths, all aged under 18, were arrested in the raid Saturday night on a building in Evry south of Paris where the gasoline bombs were being put together, Jean-Marie Huet, the ministry's director of criminal affairs and pardons, told The Associated Press.

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Denmark (***) youth riots ignored while Paris is burning

"Nothing of it has penetrated to the English-language sections of Danish media," laments the Viking Observer. The Observer took the trouble to translate into English the following from Danish Jyllands-Posten:"Rosenhoj Mall has several nights in a row been the scene of the worst riots in Århus for years."This area belongs to us," the youths proclaim. Sunday evening saw a new arson attack.

"Their words sound like a clear declaration of war on the Danish society. Police must stay out. The area belongs to immigrants.

"Four youths sit on a wall in Rosenhoj Mall Sunday afternoon, calling themselves spokesmen for the groups, that three nights in a row have ravaged and tried to burn down the restaurant and other stores.

"Around the parking lot, cars with youngsters from the immigrant community are swarming, and many are walking around, greeting each other with a sense of victory after the worst riots in Århus for years.

"Every night 30-40 youths took part, especially immigrants.

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I hope that this is not as bad as it sounds. What are the thoughts of CPFer's that live in those areas?

-Bill

(***) used to help prevent this thread going underground. I am aware of those that are probably responsible, but I would like to hear from people in-country about what they are seeing and hearing. -BB

'The worst riots in Aarhus in years...'

I was in Aarhus this summer, and I'm pretty confident that 30-40 youths causing trouble is the most exciting thing to happen in Aarhus in decades... it's a mightily sleepy place.

Seems like small potatoes next to the situation in/around Paris, which sounds really bad - over 1000 cars burned, etc. as of yesterday... big potatoes by any measure.

Paris and it's surroundings is an area of many millions, though... it's not like the entire place has degraded into anarchy.

I thought this thread would drop off the radar screen.

Am I wrong in thinking that we in America, and probably elsewhere, feel too intimidated to discuss such things?

Why are we constantly told that diversity is beautiful and multiculturalism is great?

It seems to me it's hideous, which of course makes me a racist homophobe anti-semite sexist with bad breath to boot.

Who it it that taught us to engage in all this name calling anyway?

I just took my sister to the airport yesterday. What a pain in the ***. I guess that's multiculturalism in action. Whoops, I wasn't supposed to say that was I?

Whenever I think about what's happening to my country I want to cry. When the government started taking over our schools back around 1950, I figured it was the last nail in the coffin of freedom, but I don't want to just sit here and watch us slide into the swamp.

eluminator said:

Why are we constantly told that diversity is beautiful and multiculturalism is great?

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I wonder about that myself. It seems schools and even employers nowadays strive to maintain diversity for it's own sake. It's one thing to select the best candidates without prejudice and quite another to intentionally try to get a student population/workforce which is a microcosm of the entire population, regardless of who applies.

It's also one thing to maintain your own unique culture while largely integrating into the mainstream of whatever country you're in, and quite another to live there for generations and still be practically the same as the first generation. This is the problem as I understand it in Europe now. They've had Muslim immigration for over 40 years yet for the most part the Muslim populations never intergrated into their societies. I won't speculate why but of course less integration means less success, and now those who are less successful are rebelling against a system they see as unfair. I don't know enough one way or the other to say whether it is or isn't.

We also have similar parallels in America. Some groups, most notably blacks, but certainly others, have for whatever reason have failed to fully integrate. As a result they've enjoyed less success. Prejudice has also held them back to some extent, but I believe their own focus on "being true to their roots" at the expense of integrating was the larger problem. As I said, you can maintain a lot of what's unique about your own culture while still integrating enough to be successful. Multiculturalism by definition prevents you from doing so, and I believe in Europe it was encouraged even more than in America.

Last night 5 cars were fired up in Brussels (near a train station). They don't know yet why it was done, but people are afraid the same things as in Paris will happen here...

They have also done a couple small test riots in Germany now...

Cars set afire in Berlin and Bremen

BERLIN/BREMEN, Germany, Nov. 7 (UPI) -- Youths set cars on fire overnight in Berlin and Bremen, causing officials to investigate links to the riots in neighboring France.

Five cars burned in Berlin's working class district Moabit on early Monday morning. No one was hurt, according to police reports.

Meanwhile, in the northern city of Bremen, three cars, a closed-off former school building and trash cans were set afire in the Huchting district, causing tens of thousands of dollars in damage. Huchting is a residential area and not considered a hot spot.

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France is, apparently, up to 1,400 cars burned last night and ~3,500 over the last 11 nights. Lots of damage and spreading to ~300 different town/areas over France.. The amount of injuries are up, and a possible death too (sounds like remarkably few serious casualties so far).

French rioting spreads to 300 towns, 1,400 vehicles torched; 1st death reported

PARIS (AP) - French President Jacques Chirac struck a more conciliatory note Monday as rioting by French youths spread to almost 300 towns and police reported that the violence had claimed its first fatality - a 61-year-old man beaten to death while trying to put out a trash fire.

As urban unrest spread to neighbouring Belgium and Germany, the French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm. One riot-hit town in suburban Paris said it was preparing to enforce a curfew.

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It sounds like it is going to get much worse before it gets better... However, the news agencies in US have a pretty poor history of honest reporting that was highlighted during the last hurricane season (and on many other counts too).

Are our friends in Europe seeing the same things we are hearing over hear in the states? (Excluding the almost complete news blackout in the major media for the first week or so of the problems). Any signs that the European government(s) is (are) going to stop this anytime soon?

-Bill

Also spreading to other parts of Europe. Heard something about Berlin this morning as well as other locations in France.

jtr1962 said:

It's also one thing to maintain your own unique culture while largely integrating into the mainstream of whatever country you're in, and quite another to live there for generations and still be practically the same as the first generation. This is the problem as I understand it in Europe now. They've had Muslim immigration for over 40 years yet for the most part the Muslim populations never intergrated into their societies. I won't speculate why but of course less integration means less success, and now those who are less successful are rebelling against a system they see as unfair. I don't know enough one way or the other to say whether it is or isn't.

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I can only speak for germany here, France is an entirely different case. Most of the muslims (most of them from turkey) that immigrated in the middle of the last century didn't intend to stay first. Most where men who lived in the cheapest rooms they could find, because they had their families back home. Most of the money they earned was sent home. They where invited to come here as workers when we had more work than people who could do it. When Jobs became rare, germany stopped the immigration but still allowed the immigration of family members. The men never felt a need to integrate themselves at first, because they where planning to go back. But when jobs became rare in germany, the situation in Turkey wasn't better than before, so most decided to stay and even make their family come over.
Now what happens to those who immigrate in times when jobs are hard to find? No jobs for them, and they where blamed for the jobs the germans couldn't find. This is a simple explanation that doesn't get it all, but it's one of the main problems. As a result, those immigrants often tried to find orientation in their home culture, which didn't make it easier for germans to get in contact and offer chances for integration. A vicious circle starts...

jtr1962 said:

We also have similar parallels in America. Some groups, most notably blacks, but certainly others, have for whatever reason have failed to fully integrate. As a result they've enjoyed less success. Prejudice has also held them back to some extent, but I believe their own focus on "being true to their roots" at the expense of integrating was the larger problem. As I said, you can maintain a lot of what's unique about your own culture while still integrating enough to be successful. Multiculturalism by definition prevents you from doing so, and I believe in Europe it was encouraged even more than in America.

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Same here, where does this focus to be true to their roots come from?

By the way, europe never had the "melting pot" mentality that makes integration much easier in the US.Maintaining enough of your own culture while still being integrated isn't as easy over here.
For example, ethnic quarters like "china town" are something that is still new for many european cities. If those quarters are not a prison for a culture they are a pretty good source for integration but they only work good in times of a strong economy. But if something like "little Istanbul" develops in one of our cities, it's very very hard to escape and recent studies show that it's becoming even harder.

Chrisse

In this article is a graphic showing where the major riots are located (looks like they are sprinkled all over the whole country):

Leaders Fiddle as France Burns:

...Dominique de Villepin, the beleaguered prime minister, announced that officials in riot-hit areas would be authorised to impose late-night curfews "wherever it is necessary" in a bid to halt the disturbances.

He rejected calls by a police union for troops to be sent in but said that 1,500 reservists were being called up and repeated an appeal to parents to keep adolescent rioters off the streets.

Although the disorder began on the intimidating sink estates of Paris's northern suburbs, trouble had been reported yesterday in the early hours from most regions of the country. Even areas such as Brittany, the Loire and Bordeaux, favoured by British holidaymakers and second- home hunters, have now been drawn into the worst wave of unrest in France since the spring revolt of 1968 set in motion the downfall of Gen Charles de Gaulle...

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-Bill

and the answer is . . . . . . . shoot them!

The recent natural disasters and the violence and looting afterward in the US is no different. Here are the steps to take:

1. Declare Martial Law

2. Make announcements that looters will be shot

3. Looter leaves store or house carrying a wide-screen plasma TV

4. Shoot looter

5. Display body of looter as a warning to anyone else.

chrisse242 said:

..."melting pot" mentality that makes integration much easier in the US...

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Maybe it started that way, but present reality is different. Sadly, segreggation and separation are gaining momentum. At least that's my personal experience.

greenLED said:

Maybe it started that way, but present reality is different. Sadly, segreggation and separation are gaining momentum. At least that's my personal experience.

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You're right, I should have written "used to make".

Chrisse

greenLED said:

Maybe it started that way, but present reality is different. Sadly, segreggation and separation are gaining momentum. At least that's my personal experience.

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They are gaining ground because of two issues.
First, 100 years ago, immigration wasn't easy. There were significant physical barriers, so what you tended to get was only the most motivated, and in general, those immigrating were fleeing something, and they really didn't want to be reminded of what they had left behind (like Czarist Russia, or later, Nazi occupation, or Communist Eastern Europe).

This leads to the second issue. 100 years ago because those immigrating were leaving behind a life they wished to forget, most made a very real effort to learn the new language, culture and customs, and become fully integrated into their new home.

Combination of Motivation and desire for full integration avoids disintegration.

Today the barrier to immigration is perhaps a couple hundred dollars and a few hours by air, and many of those who immigrate wish to retain their language, life style and culture in the new location, so they make little if any effort to fully integrate into local society. One result is they are often ill equipped to earn a decent living. The decision not to be become integrated or at least familiar with the new surrounding isn't so much a failure of the local society, and as a refusal by the new inhabitants to be become part of that society.

100 years ago if you suggested that Hispanic immigrant children should be taught in Spanish, you'd have been tossed out on your a**. The result was 100 years, it was common for immigrant parents not to speak their native language in front of the children. They wanted to be sure they learned to speak and live the local language.

So what we have now are ethnic enclaves that are very effectively disconnected from everything in the country they are located in.

It is a toss up whether the government has failed them through policies that encourage diversity for the sake of diversity (and in so doing end up actively encouraging a severely fractured society), or they have failed themselves.

Hello everybody.
I read your forum since 3 month, and it's very useful.
I'm french (so it's normal that I've a bad american language:laughing.

The riots in French are not as dramatic than they appear on TV. But more than 1200 cars have been fired (almost all the big citys) and 4 or 5 school..
It's problematic for the moment but not catastrophic. I think that in 4 or 5 days, the situation will be cooled.
Why these riots ? Because two young people have gone in an electric transformator to escape to the police. They die by electrocution. And the police don't explain correctly the circumstances. That makes a few riots in theirs "cité" in Clichy but nothing.
One of our well-known minister (M. Sarkosy ) said that he have to clean the suburban with a "kärcher" to eliminate the young deviants... and that degenerate in clichy and next, with the help of the media, in all the big citys.

I'm french (so it's normal that I've a bad american language

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Funny, we're American and that goes the same for many of us too, but I digress.

Welcome to the forum, your input is much appreciated and your English is fine. Stay safe.

Chris

I have very strong opinions on this matter and I think I characterized those who disagree with me too harshly. Apologies to those I offended.

W.

It is very difficult for 1st generation immigrants to integrate into mainstream population. It is incumbent for the parents of that generation to encourage their children to integrate into general society. The problem with muslim immigrants is that they see their identity associated with Islam. They feel alienated when they are confront with secular society in European countries.

The youths also don't dress nor act according to European mores. Hence Europeans mistrust them and ostracize them. Consequently it just deepen the divide between 2 ethic groups. Why do muslims have such difficulty integrating into France mainstream society when other ethic groups such as Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese have no such problem at all. All other Asian ethic groups have done very well economically, and socially within French culture.

Muslims must ask themselves the question if Islam is the reason that is holding them back from integrating into secular societies around the world.

wmirag said:

The battle of France is not over but Her fate is sealed. The battle for the rest of Western Civilization is about to begin. May God help us find ourselves before it's too late.

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Great post wmirag. There is truth to everything you said but especially to the line I quoted. I fear this will spread not only through Europe but everywhere else. All those who have been told for years by the mainstream media and academia that they were "victims" will take matters into their own hands to get what they feel they're "entitled to". Of course, in the end these efforts will fail miserably but the toll on both sides in terms of loss of life will be enormous, probably exceeding that of the first two world wars combined. I also fear that we, meaning both Western and Eastern modern developed nations, may well be forced to wipe Islamic nations right off the map in order to ensure our survival. The reasons for this are many, but it boils down to the fact that the set of beliefs held by those in these Islamic nations are incompatible both with the modern world and peaceful coexistence with your neighbors. In a nutshell, everyone who doesn't hold your beliefs is the enemy, and you're free to resort to any means necessary to kill your enemy, right down to strapping bombs to your own children. It's often said you can't fight a belief so there's no way we can win through peaceful means. I can only hope for the best but fear for the worst, and offer my sympathies for those who did and will die in this conflict.

Interesting comments... But I am trying to avoid getting this thread closed through political discussions that demonize entire groups/religions. Not trying to be PC, just CPF friendly.

Instead, I would like to hear about the conditions in France and are they anything like what we are reading (albeit, not very much in our major press).

From the "outside", it appears that very little has been done to this point that directly is attempting to shut down the evening riots.

We all have our own ideas too about what could be done, both short term and long term, but the above ground CPF is probably not the place to discuss this very hot subject.

Any one over there in France able to give an update over and above what we are seeing in the English language press?

-Bill

Without expressing agreement or disagreements with expressions developing, I do take note that the intensity of opinions developing is exceeding the nature of our forum. The Underground was created as a opportunity for meaningful discussion of such intense topics, that would otherwise be lost with our restrictions. Please feel free to take the discussion there.