Who will build the Fenix challenger?

Well...I might just have stated that as who "could"
build the Fenix challenger. The way I see it there are
a host of companies that could and I believe "should"
but what are the chances?

This is the way I see it.

1. M_g Not a chance. However with their productive
might and economies of scale they could certainly
have a world beater if they WANTED to.

2. Innova>>> Probably the best candidate with their
meticulous build quality and engineering. Innova
has single led lights but seems to prefer multis, they
also offer lights with a variety of energy sources, just
not necessarily "tactically" styled lights of the right size/timbre
to challenge the Fenix at this time.


3. Surefire>>> No question they have the ability in every respect
except that the price would probably be out of the Fenix range
and alkies are against their religion :sigh:

4. Brinkman>>>> Just not the right company to produce this kind of
light. If they could/would...the price would probably be right, however
there wouldn't be an American flag anywhere on the box.

5. Dorcy>>>Same reasons as Brinkman.

6. Garrity>>> See 4 & 5.

7. HDS>>>They've already got the Fenix beat, but we're talking
second mortgage here

8. Duracell>>>I don't have that 'lil freebee that comes with
the 8 pack of AA's. It's about the right size and takes a single
AA and is an incan. Now I'm not a betting man...however I'm
pretty sure....well....you know

9. Streamlight>>>Could very well do it. I would just hope the light
would be more like the Scorp or Nightfighter than the TT 2L in
terms of quality.

10. Pelican>>> A small black tactically contoured single AA M6L?
But would they?

11. Nightcutter>>>Could be a longshot, one month they're producing
lights the next they're not. Who knows?

12. LRI........:thinking:............:thinking:..................

Peak, Arc, Gerber?

In terms of technology, any one of those could build a Fenix-challenger... but in reality, none of them would.

Streamlight, Surefire, HDS, and Peak all aim for a higher class of lights - they believe the quality you get is worth paying for, and so will spend more time making a better-crafted light, and then you'll pay more money for such a light. Also, Surefire's main market is miliary and LEO, who don't really have THAT big a demand for alkaline AA-powered LED lights; they want brighter and bigger lights, most times, or lights which can double-duty if needed.

Brinkman, Dorcy, Garrity and Duracell aim for the other segment of the market - the 'common person' who needs a light which uses standardl-sized cells of the type that Duracell and other battery companies ship millions of each day. Those people WILL be the type using AA or similar-sized lights... but I doubt they'll invest as much money into making a light of the same size as the Fenix with the same features, as most people will NOT spend $40 for an AA-sized light, even if it has antireflective coatings and Type III anodization. If it came in a plastic body that was reasonably sturdy, with a plastic lens and had a simple squeeze-switch, they might go for it... at $10-15 a pop. But do they really know what Type III anodization is? Nope. Do they care that the AR coating lets more than 99% of the light in the head get out? Nope. Will they pay extra for an aluminum body? Probably not.

Nightcutter's gone out of the flashlight market for good, according to Nightcutter, so we're going to leave them out. In theory, they probably could build such a light... but I doubt it'd be as cheap as the Fenix is.

Inova and Pelican, however, aim for the middle market of users - people who are a little more demanding of their lights, but who won't pay HDS or Surefire prices due to needing to buy in bulk or because they have specific requirements (hazardous environment rated, etc). Inova and Pelican COULD make such a light... but whether it'd be at a similar price point is another story. The closest light Inova's made to the Fenix in size and technology is the T1, which uses 1x123 and also has a LuxI in the lens... but they didn't seem to pick the best bins for those lights, since a LuxIII underdriven matches and sometimes exceeds it, and my Fenix meets my Q-III in terms of performance, if not in the intensity of the spill (which is somewhat less at range).

Pelican's probably the best 'bet' in that list you've given, as might be Arc with their reputation for craftsmanship... but again I doubt that they could meet the price unless they too did their manufacturing in China.

Nobody that sells to retail outlets can beat the fenix in quality/price ratio
with exception of perhaps walmart buying up 10 million like the dorcy AAA at
$6. If you look everywhere else the little AAA dorcy is from $8-$12 which is about
40-100% higher... equate that to the fenix at about $42 and you get $60-90.
I just do not see it happening through normal retail channels as retail stores
demand a certain markup.

Peak and Arc are both working on 1x AA Luxeon lights. Peak sort of already has one -- Kino Bay -- but it's obviously a 1st attempt and has significant limitations in run time, output, and regulation.

I doubt Arc or Peak will be cost competitive with Fenix, but their 1x AA Lux products will likely have other compelling characteristics that make them attractive.

I remember speculating about the same thing on another thread.
IMO, Inova would be the most likely to compete in terms of build quality and price, but they need to put some effort into developing reflectored lights with good beam quality, and also need to focus on keeping their designs as compact as posible. As I stated in whatever other thread that was, I'd love to see something like the X1 sans optic, using a good reflector and a "T" series type of true momentary switch.

Gerber could try, but I don't feel that the quality they have exhibited in their offerings since the CMG takeover reach the Fenix level of quality. Their finish isn't as tough, they don't have a reflectored, regulated luxeon light in their lineup (not even the "flagship" LX and TX line).

I think Nuwai *could* come up with something decent, but they won't. They generally go for style and low cost over the extra lengths that Fenix has gone to to make a standout light in terms of quality.

I'd love to see a company like Princeton Tec trying to take a bite out of Gerber's Ultra with a polymer 1AA light, maybe a variable brightness one like the EOS. However, even that light uses 3AAA cells, so using one AA is much more challenging (you need a boost circuit instead of a buck for regulation) and a plastic body would probably mean the light couldn't be as bright as the Fenix due to heat sink issues.

I remember reading that the reason LRI decided not to make the Proton a luxeon light was mainly the expense associated with handpicking good binned emmiters necessary to acheive the desired results. This problem alone is likely to be prohibitively expensive for American companies to compete with Fenix's performance.

What about TnC? I'm not sure about the cost factor being competitive, but my KeyLux AA is bright, tough, and has a near-perfect white beam.

Also, could Elektrolumens make something competitive?

I was interpreting the question as competing contingent on cost, but no doubt, TNC makes a superb 1AA light.

Elekrolumens lights are good bang for the buck lights, but several have had quality control issues. Still, I have faith that Wayne could come up with something cool, but I haven't seen him around here recently.

I never heard of Fenix before a 6 months ago. They came out of nowhere with a - let's face it - world class product at an unbeatable price. If there's ever a Fenix challenger buiult, my guess is that it will come from another company we've never heard of which has a factory adept at making something else - golf clubs or something - and decides to jump into this market. Anyone here old enough to remember Glock?

Oh yes, and it WILL be a Chinese company. We'll get it through our unique early adopter supply chain, we'll love it, and maybe it will catch on with a big US retailer, or maybe it won't.

I for one am so glad for our unique direct supply channels of Chinese factory lights.

river rock already builds an equal to fenix in another sector.

IMHO best $15 headlamp made. 2x AAA, regulated beam, hi for 7hr, low for 25hr.

best two stage clicky I've seen from anyone. nice straps, nice bright white beam. use reflector for lots of throw. only negative is beam may be too tight. has slight adjustment.

wonder if RR is a target only brand?

I don't think anyone will build it. If someone does it will be cheaper made/bigger/not as bright. The companies that can build it as good or better won't, because what would be the purpose, since the Fenix is already being made, and at a great price... my 2 cents.

LRI Proton especially if the Nichia Jupiter ever comes back (LRI doesn't like dealing with Luxeons).

Big_Ed said:

What about TnC? I'm not sure about the cost factor being competitive, but my KeyLux AA is bright, tough, and has a near-perfect white beam.

Also, could Elektrolumens make something competitive?

Click to expand...

I've had two TNC's (see these pictures: LINK)
I must say the Fenix blow it out of the water as far as output.
The TNC has unique slanted knurling but I don't think justifies 2x
the price.
Also if you peer into the TNC's front end and observe the yellow, you'll
see that the reflector isn't perfect and slightly out of focus. This is
the case in both of mine. Anyway, in my point of view having
handled both, the TNC doesn't even come close.

Solstice said:

I was interpreting the question as competing contingent on cost, but no doubt, TNC makes a superb 1AA light.

Click to expand...

Well....sort of. In reality though how many resonably priced lights are there
like the Fenix that have dual brightness levels that use std batts and have
a relatively compact size?

I don't know why I left Peak and Arc out of my original post. Arc has the regulation and rugged build quality and Peak has scale and prowess
to close the deal. The Caribbean is close even though it uses Cr's, just
doesn't have dual levels.

How would anyone who has both compare the build quality of the Caribbean
to the Fenix?

MB

4sevens said:

I've had two TNC's (see these pictures: LINK)

Click to expand...

4sevens sold us out.... j/k
nice product placement.... "Shouldn't your baby be a Gerber Baby?"

nemul said:

4sevens sold us out.... j/k
nice product placement.... "Shouldn't your baby be a Gerber Baby?"

Click to expand...

Hehe... I don't like to promote or sell anything that isn't worth it
I've had many comments that he looks like a Gerber.
Well my kid is 50% chinese and 50% polish. Go figure.. :shrug:
That picture was taken when he was 3 months. He is now 15 months

The answer is simple.

Surefire

And they'll continue to lose money as long as they ignore a market that clearly wants high quality flashlights that use aa and aaa batteries.

Surefire & Inova make tactical lights. They love the 123A form factor. On the other hand Inova only needs a souped up boost circuit to make a X1-Lux.

Streamlight serves the industrial/harzadous location market. Depends if that market wants a small enough light. Then we might see a junior version of the junior.

Tectite & Underwater Kinetics make dive lights. They already cover the small end with the splashlite and 2AAA eLED. The 2AAA eLED in particular sorely needs an LED upgrade. Can not see them redesigning the cases for a 1AA battery.

Garrity, Duracell, Energizer, Ray O Vac make flashlights for the masses so they can sell batteries to the masses. Premium is not part of their strategy.

The same might be said for Dorcy, except they were the 1st among the majors to embrace LEDs in a big way, and also luxeon lights. The sucess of the 1AAA LED might cause them to consider a 1AA LUX. Probably a shortened version of their 2AA 1 watt. Momentary button with twisty lockout tailcap.

LRI is down to details such as pocket clip. Probably going to be the 1st serious challenger to emerge.

Someone linked to the Sears website page of a 1AA 1watt. IIRC seems rather looooong though.

Coast also showed a 1AA 60 lumen light at the shot show.......

At the high end TNC Peak ARC will all compete.

On the low end Terralux has the MiniMax & Chromestar.

If the Fenix popularity continues I won't be surprised to see a ver.4 premium of the Xnova 1AA 8LED with Nichia CS driven at 30mA each. Or a Lux1/Jupiter version.

It won't be long before those eBay 1/2 watt 1AA/1AAA/keychain lights get a 1 watt brother.

The Fenix sure impresses me with it's brightness, beam quality, and sturdy manufacture. The biggest improvement I'd look for would be to have 3 levels of brightness, making it a multipurpose pocket-sized light. I think LRI is on track with a bright 1xAA and variable settings, whether a luxeon or 6x5mm leds. A non-rolling version would also make a lot of sense.

Inova seems to be the most likely candidate for semi mass-market - the X1 has done amazingly well after all.

'Problem is that it would only be slightly more useful than the X1 if they just upped the emitter and drive circuitry - the "River Rock" 2xAA shows as much (nearly identical beam profile). If they installed a wider-angle optic, it would be a decent task light.