Metal or plastic reflector in Fenix flashlights?

Some CPF members have noticed some Fenix flashlights come with plastic reflectors. In this thread Fenix flashlights with metal and plastic reflectors are compared, the use of a plastic reflector doesn't affect the beam. The flashlight even saves on weight.

I have contacted Fenix about the reflector question. This is what they've told me :
Fenix is trying to improve their products. Though they have been using metal reflectors upto now, they have seen metal reflectors are not as good as the plastic ones in some aspects. Plastic reflectors are lighter, firmer in plating, and more stable in quality. In fact, only high heat incandescent bulbs need to use metal reflectors. Though the metal reflector works well in the flashlights, Fenix might only use plastic reflectors in the future due to it's advantages upon metal ones. No matter what kind of reflectors they use, the only purpose for Fenix is to pursue better quality. They confirm they are trying to use the best quality products for their flashlights.

So there's nothing to worry about

Another thing (might be slightly off topic however very interesting for some of us ): Fenix doesn't have a delivery date for the L2 and L2P for dealers yet. They are working on it and they try to get it available as soon as possible

Erasmus.

Hi Erasmus

Thank you for your efforts.

My initial impression of what Fenix has said is.....

What a bunch of self serving sales tripe!!!!! The words "bait and switch" come to mind.

I bought mine based on the claims about it, including a metal reflector. They are changing their story now that they have been caught.

Steve

justsomeguy said:

Hi Erasmus

Thank you for your efforts.

My initial impression of what Fenix has said is.....

What a bunch of self serving sales tripe!!!!! The words "bait and switch" come to mind.

I bought mine based on the claims about it, including a metal reflector. They are changing their story now that they have been caught.

Steve

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Don't be so angry at them, they just try to improve their products. From the moment they started changing the metal reflector to a plastic one, their website was edited, the specs don't claim a metal reflector anymore. Fenix really cares about their products and customers, I'm sure they will try to avoid disappointed customers like you in the future!

My dealer, J S Burly's, has apparently not been informed of the "upgrade". The Fenix L1P is still listed as having a metal reflector.

https://www.jsburlys.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=108&osCsid=b49b3b47114322072adbd8798472b2d2

BTW, after 10-15 minutes "on" the front end of my Fenix gets HOT. More metal mass there would help.

Since you are so concerned and seemingly disgruntled about the use of the plastic reflector... could you perhaps show us a picture of your damaged plastic reflector, justsomeguy.

If they both throw a useful beam and is entirely unlikely to melt, what's the problem with a plastic reflector? I've used plastic reflectors on U-bin Lux III mods and on overdriven T-bin Lux III mods and haven't melted a single one so I think it's highly unlikely that an R-bin Lux I driven at spec will hurt it.

Honestly, I don't mean to be directing my anger at you, but it's just silly that some folks (not just you - see the several similar threads that have popped up recently) will get all ticked off at a production change. I mean, it's an Asian-made budget light for $40. As long as it throws a usable beam with decent throw and nice spill, who cars?

Erasmus said:

Fenix really cares about their products and customers,

Click to expand...

they care about higher profit's using cheaper material...

cratz2 said:

If they both throw a useful beam and is entirely unlikely to melt, what's the problem with a plastic reflector? [...] Honestly, I don't mean to be directing my anger at you, but it's just silly that some folks (not just you - see the several similar threads that have popped up recently) will get all ticked off at a production change. I mean, it's an Asian-made budget light for $40. As long as it throws a usable beam with decent throw and nice spill, who cars?

Click to expand...

Actually, it having a metal reflector was a pretty big deal from the threads i've read, so i can see it now being plastic not sitting well with people. After all, companies don't go around advertising "now with plastic reflector!" And while i've certainly spent more than $40 for a torch, i don't think $40 qualifies as "budget".

IMO, efficiency and beam quality are ONLY standard. Who care metal or plastic reflector in a LED light?

Oh... don't get me wrong... I certainly don't prefer a plastic reflector to metal one, assuming they have the exact same throw/spill balance. My point was, if the light is a good value with a metal reflector, then is the light really a lesser value if everything remains the same except the reflector has been changed to plastic.

Personally, I'm much more concerned that runtime was cut in half for a slightl - and most likely unnoticable - increase in brightness.

As far as the vendors not listing the fact that the reflectors are now plastic... I don't know... they are probably too busy selling everyone they get their hands on to update their webpages. And for Fenix not updating their webpage... come on guys... Inova didn't even list that they had the T series until they had been out for several months.

I guess my main point is this... if someone really dislikes the fact that it has a plastic reflector and that is so disappointed by that fact that they no longer want the light... then it shouldn't be to hard to sell... And the vendor should probably take the return, minus shipping of course. But that would mean the buyer losing about $7 on what is probably the one of the best values in single cell lights.

I really doubt the metal reflector helped a lot in thermal management. Higher reflectivity might be another thing, but we'll never know wether the output with a metal reflector ist better or not, unless someone takes a bunch of lights with both reflectors and tests them. I for one could care less, I doubt that the difference will even be visible.

Chrisse

Doesn't a metal reflector help conduct heat away from the LED? I'm not really worried about the LED lifetime but isn't heat a cause of reduced output over time?

It also bothers me a bit when a manufacturer quietly removes something they touted as a feature reducing cost without passing on the savings to the customer.

I wonder if there's any correlation between the reflector type and the donut up close that some of the L1Ps have?

Mike

Given the way the LED was mounted on a heatsink which transferred the rest of its heat to the head, I don't see the reflector material as being that big a deal... especially seeing my metal one's chipped at the front anyways, where the rim meets the glass - it doesn't affect the beam any, and you have to be a nit-picker to really notice it. Remember - LED heat is 'radiated' into the LED itself and surrounding materials of the mount, rather than being radiated towards the front where the reflector and glass would be - metal reflectors really help with incandescents because of the infrared emission those lights usually put out, as plastic ones melt due to this bombardment of IR radiation, and it is this same emission which lets incan Surefires put on an IR filter for use with NVGs. The L1P's reflector is not used as a heatsink here - the mount and the head itself are what 'take' the heat.

The big deal with the Fenix L1P's, from what I recall, was the fact that they had premium-binned LuxI's and AR-glass; nothing about 'metal reflectors' was mentioned in the hype everyone else had, IIRC. It was the guarantee of R-bins and coated glass at the price, plus HA-III (albeit thin, yet more durable than Q-III HA-II) finishes which had everyone salivating.

I don't think that the plastic reflector has as much to do with the donut-hole, so much as the placement of the LED in the head and reflector focus; at close range, pretty much ANY reflector wil give that hole - be it a McR 19, 20, 30 or 45, or a cheap $0.50 one from a no-name manufacturer. Most of my Fenix-related issues have been due to the switch getting loose inside (which I tightened), or else the head or tail wasn't tightened down enough for a proper contact.

On the whole, I've been impressed by what has been done with the price point and features included in the light... and the metal reflector hasn't been a deal-breaker for me. Now, if they suddenly announce they're switching to aluminum foil shaped into a rough reflector to save costs, and that they're removing the AR-coating from the Premium to replace it with a piece of plastic, then I'm jumping ship.

Most all my lights have a donut up close that use a reflector. They focus farther out. thats the nature of a parabolic reflector. typically the tighter the beam, the farter out - like a single mag reflector mod..

There's an emotional appeal to the "all metal" idea which does not necessarily tie to performance. Just like they used to advertise that things were "better built than they needed to be" (anyone remember Herter's) or "100% machined metal forgings", the idea of technical overkill has a distinct appeal to some, especially some of us here.

So, there may be some loss of emotional satistfaction with the use of a plastic reflector which can cause grumbles, but I have little doubt that - properly done - a plastic reflector would perform as good as or better than metal at these low power levels. It makes sense that a manufacturer would choose to do something which reduced costs without degrading any sensible measure of performance. In engineering, it's called "learning curve".

That said, if the manufacturer understood the appeal of overkill well enough enough to advertise "metal reflector" before, they should remove that reference afterwards. I personally don't care about the reflector material in the Fenix as long as it works.

However, I do really long for the old "100% all metal - and no moving parts" front twisty style of flashlight which is so hard to find in an inexpensive light nowadays.

In a light that gets hot I'd be concerned about the long-term effects on a plastic reflector from my uneducated perspective, and I'd be concerend about heatsinking, too.
ANother point is that usually a well-made metal reflector is better than a plastic part, but we cannot be sure if this is true for the Fenix.
bernie

Kiessling said:

In a light that gets hot I'd be concerned about the long-term effects on a plastic reflector from my uneducated perspective, and I'd be concerend about heatsinking, too.

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But that certainly isn't the case with the fenix, right? The fenix doesn't get hot, slightly warm but not hot.

Chrisse

Kiessling said:

In a light that gets hot I'd be concerned about the long-term effects on a plastic reflector from my uneducated perspective, and I'd be concerend about heatsinking, too.
ANother point is that usually a well-made metal reflector is better than a plastic part, but we cannot be sure if this is true for the Fenix.
bernie

Click to expand...

If the Fenix were driven or overdriven as hard as some of our custom lights, or had a better power supply, I'd be more concerned about the heat there. Given that they drive the LuxI at spec (300-350mAh) off a 1.5V power supply, that doesn't seem to be as much a concern as some of the homemade ones which are driven at higher power levels and have better power supplies which can direct-drive the Luxeons.

I've yet to get a Fenix that really got hot, or even more than 'mildly warm', even when left unattended for two or three minutes; I suspect that's due to the mass of the light itself, plus the fact that the Luxeon is mounted in such a way that the reflector doesn't contact the LED itself, and only contacts the rest of the head, while the head itself contacts both the body of the light as well, giving it a lot of metal to bleed the heat into, before it ever gets to the reflector inside.

Metal reflectors -can- be better made, but that's not always a given, just as it isn't a given for plastic reflectors. I'd worry more about heat in another kind of light, myself - the Fenix doesn't get hot enough, in my experience, to warrant concerns about melting reflectors. At least, not the non-modded ones.

C'mon guys, people've been running BB750's (and meybe higher) in minimags (with plastic reflectors/optics) for ages now. I don't remember seeing reports of melting reflectors, and we know the first gen BB's ran hotter than the current ones.

I also agree with GreenLed as I have 4 ARC LS series all with plastic IMS 17 mm reflectors. Each one has current bumped to about 600-700 mA and each one gets pretty hot. I have never had any problem and we all have used the IMS reflectors in some pretty wild mods with no problems.
I really see no problem with plastic here as there is really no down side to me. It is a win win situation in my opinion as we save weight,cost and still have a nearly flawless beam.
I even have a FF2 with the reflector in direct contact with the cup shaped bezel. This little light gets hot pretty quickly and the IMS reflector has been filed down to very thin specs to fit. I have yet to have a problem and the Fenix reflector is fairly robust even for a plastic part. It is pretty thick and has the main part of the reflector a pretty good distance away from the base of the heat sink anyway.
I still think my Fenix lights are well done and will look forward to their other lights in the future.

I do not see how a metal reflector would help a luxeon led flashlight disapate heat.

unless there is a themally conductive pathway from the star or emitter's metal base or to the heat sink that the star or emitter is atached to the reflector will play little or no part in disipating thermal energy produced by the led.

plastic sounds better to me,

led light sources produce and disipate heat quite differently than incandesent light sources.

luxeon led's disipate heat into a heat sink atached to the metal slug in the back of the led.

unlike a incan very little if any heat energy is emitted or radiated out the front of the luxeon led and the black plastic body and clear plastic lens of the luxeon led are very very poor conductors of heat.

so unless you have a intergrated heat sink - metal reflector system with a thermal pathway to the reflector - who cares.

if you have a fenix with the old style reflector - write the company and get the new and improved lighter more robust plastic reflector.


ha ha ha

mark D.