Bezel Tactics

I started this thread here in order to avoid hijacking this one:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/99301

Most "tactical" lights that have clips, have them installed so the bezel faces up when the light is clipped to a pocket (or purse or whatever). This seems really wrong to me, and here's why:

You grab the light, pull it from your pocket/purse/belt/whatever, you hold it up, and it's pointed at your own face.

It's OK though because the tailcap switch is out back, under your little finger, so there's no danger that you'll actually turn it on and blind yourself. (Or anyone else, for that matter.)

I can at least understand while a light would have no clip at all... But I am completely unable to explain why 99% of the "tactical" flashlights that DO have clips, have them installed backwards. Are you supposed to grab it with your pinky so it's in the right positioned well in your hand after you pull it (by gripping with your pinky) from whatever it's clipped to? Who thinks this stuff up?

I'm not bitter or anything. I just recently bought a Streamlight TL-2 - my first "interesting" flashlight (I refuse to call it "tactical" (besides sounding silly to begin with, it just plain isn't)), and I smacked my forehead when I realized how stupid the belt clip design is. So I spent some time over the last few nights looking online for something better and I've just been amazed at how few alternatives there are.

Are there any "tactics" (other than those employed by France in WWII) where it actually makes sense to carry your "tactical" flashlight bezel-up?

What lights do you know of that have a clip installed for bezel-down carry? So far I've found:

• Tactical Operations Products Stryker
• Laser Devices OV-1
• maybe the Streamlight NF-2?

Not so sure I would look to the French military for tactical advice. . .

I like the idea of a bezel-down pouch, like those used with the SureFire M3 and Night-Ops Gladius.

Scott

"You grab the light, pull it from your pocket/purse/belt/whatever, you hold it up, and it's pointed at your own face."

Huh? That's only if you start with an IMO very awkward hand positioning. (I actually had to think about getting the light pointed at myself.)

Starting off with the bezel up and rotating the hand as the light comes out and up is certainly not any more difficult than sweeping the safety down and off on a Colt .45 auto as it's drawn. Figure ten minutes of practice, max.

I was just about the start this thread as well.

Thank you NFW.

I agree with you COMPLETELY.

I was JUST thinking about how I can keep my 9p, clipped, in my pocket, bezel DOWN.

Here... I just took this pic... I want a CLIP so I can carry like THIS....

The way I carry and "draw" my SureFire L2/A2/etc. from bezel-up is to grab the head with my ring finger or middle finger and pinky, slipping my thumb into my pocket along the body of the light. I pinch the head between my fingers and the heel of my hand and pull the light out. Even with the long L2 only a slight (and automatic) readjustment will get my thumb on the button. An L4 requires no readjustment at all.

This is so second nature that I often end up with my thumb on the lens of my McLux PD, which rides in my pocket bezel down.

Scott

I ushley EDC a Aleph in a ripoffs belt carer becs I dont like having MORE stuf in my pockiets.

I do like the lights that clip with the bezel up becus they keep the bigger part of the light out of my pocket. Also I usley carrey them in my back pocket and if you need a marker light just turn it on and leave it in your pocket, lights up your hole back and makes it easey to see. Down fall is soum times this hapens when sitting down on hard chars or benches.

Outher than that I have goten usto bezel up, I just use my thumb to get the light started up and then grab it with the rest of my hand.

I like the way the 2AA/AAA MM M@G clip worcks (though the qualty needs so serous inprovemtn) you can carey it bezel up or down or move it aneywhere on the light.

HWilliam said:

"You grab the light, pull it from your pocket/purse/belt/whatever, you hold it up, and it's pointed at your own face."

Huh? That's only if you start with an IMO very awkward hand positioning. (I actually had to think about getting the light pointed at myself.)

Click to expand...

For the sake of completeness, there is another possibility that is highly ergonomic. Lower your hand to your waist, grab the light (the exposed part on the light - that would be the bezel) with your thumb and forefinger, pull, raise your hand to head height... Personally, this either leaves me with a secure grip on a light that's pointed backwards (thumb and forefinger on the bezel, body of light in my palm), or a bad grip on a light that's pointed forwards (thumb and forefinger on the bezel, body of light hanging out unsupported, light illuminating my palm and fingers).

Or you can grab the light with your weak fingers and twiddle it into position. I've tried that but decided instead to get a light that was designed to be drawn and held with my stronger (and more dextrous) fingers. It requires a bit of wrist contortion too, and I just don't see an advantage to make any of that worthwhile.

True, large bezels make bezel-down carry less comfortable and more prone to snagging, but that's a solvable problem. Small bezels exist, and a smooth transition from body to bezel is not exactly rocket science.

And for those of you who prefer bezel-up carry: cool. More power to ya. No hard feelings. I sure wish I could find more lights designed to suit the way my hands prefer to move.

I also prefer bezel down, which is partly why I own an NF-2, but I don't find bezel up to be all that awkward.

I use the TL2 exactly as beezaur described. This is a perfect method as long as you carry the light waist high.

In a shirt pocket this would be different, but then, I would only carry a smaller light in that place, so not really the first light I would want to use in an emergency.

Kees

I get my Lambda Modded Mini out of a standard Holster so often that I don't even think about it.

Thumb and middle finger get it started, other fingers join in, light gets rotated tail forward then up then back, and thumb falls on the Kroll quite easily.

Light coming out of back pocket gets almost the exact same treatment.

I don't see it as such a big issue. I DO see that anything other than a tailswitch would complcate matters greatly!

"I use the TL2 exactly as beezaur described."

Right. No problem.

The Surefire U2 has bezel down carry.

The McLux and McLux III PD have bezel down carry, see McGizmo's forum for the McLux lights. The origional McLux is no longer being made, but they can be found in the Custom B/S/T (there are two there now).

http://greatholsters.com/

Good holsters for bezel up or down carry.

I carry bezel up, just drop my hand to my side and, if clipped to belt, merely wrap my fingers around the body which orients my thumb at the tailswitch, draw off belt and raise hand in "semi salute" posture. Same if clipped in my pocket (bezel up) or in my holster from above site. Light is now at chest or shoulder height with thumb on switch and ready to go.
You are carrying and drawing in the same fashion as one would with a pocket knife. Nothing wrong with that, just different than I do it.
I draw (from bezel up) as I do as it is the same orientation as when I draw my firearm, hence the "tactical" description given flashlights, when used in conjunction with firearms. My draw method allows for integration with a firearm in a commonly taught technique.
Only other bezel down tac light I can think of offhand besides the SL NF's are the SF Z series, used in a holster that allows bezel up/down carry, and utilizes the "ring like the NF's for a different light/firearm technique than I utilize.
Niether is better than the other and practice is the key to making anything work. Most important factor is that you find what is comfortable and what feels "natural" for you, but give the above link a look over, you may find a holster that suites some of your needs and uses.

Awkwardness is one factor here but the main factor is expediency. What do I mean by this?

Draw of a bezel-up carry: grab light, draw, turn over, re-establish grip, and use.

Draw of a bezel-down carry: grab light, draw, use. Essentially all you need to do is have a solid grip and bend your elbow to present the light.

The turn over phase of bezel-up carry takes time. This is time that can be far better spent in a defensive encounter than on needlessly manipulating your light again, and increasing the fumble factor under adrenalized stress, which will make you a) very strong, and b) very clumsy, making fine motor skills difficult at best, and increases the likelihood of dropping it altogether. If you train to draw your light--or anything else you mean to use, for that matter--under stress, you can reduce some of these effects, but the time wasted cannot be regained, meaning you'd better have some other technique or tool available to you until you can get your light out and ready for use. Since I suspect many of us carry a powerful light to distract someone hopefully long enough to get in our first technique or escape, bezel-up is distinctly useless.

Being as winter is nearly upon us, drawing from a jacket pocket can be done, with the hand prepositioned therein for draw-to-light (or strike), which negates some of this issue. Belt holsters are also an option, but are uncomfortable for some (me included), and there are those that hate looking like Batman with an array of stuff on the belt.

Lastly, there is also a design problem in that many lights flare at the bezel, making access to other items in the pocket harder than with bezel-up, hence why many lights are made bezel-up. Until manufacturers start addressing these issues, proper lights are going to either be a custom proposition or very thin on the ground. Surefire, usually one of the best manufacturers, (IMO) stepped on their plumbing with the E2D--sharp edges protruding upwards and the clip in the wrong direction make for a very bad combo, and this despite the rather limited bezel flare on it.

BTW, IIRC the Gladius clip was to carry the light bezel-down, although I've never seen or handled one, but I read that in a post by Ken Good on another forum.

edakoppo said:

Awkwardness is one factor here but the main factor is expediency. What do I mean by this?

Draw of a bezel-up carry: grab light, draw, turn over, re-establish grip, and use.

Draw of a bezel-down carry: grab light, draw, use. Essentially all you need to do is have a solid grip and bend your elbow to present the light.

.

Click to expand...

Now you see I find, for myself the opposite to be true, I find it faster in bezel up, with no fumbling. Different strokes for different folks.

I'm going to guess that the people who prefer bezel-up carry the light in a holster or clipped to the outside of their belt or pocket, and the people who prefer bezel-down carry their lights clipped to the inside of a pocket? Is there a correlation there?

Since guns keep coming up I have a related observation: seems to me that "carry" 1911 sights are typically angled for most snag-free insertion into the holster, rather than snag-free draw from the holster, and I don't understand that either. For example: http://www.heinie.com/images/sw1911big.jpg

Draw wise I dont really have a preference, I can adapt to anything. Like Williams said, ten minutes and ya got it down. Though I'd prefer bezel down to better protect the lense, I probably won't care less after it gets a few nice big ones on there.

That's just the way combatsights are designed. They're suppose to be sturdy and useable, but snagging still shouldn't be an issue if you use a holster. A full length groove cut into the slide works better for pocket carry.

Snagging on insertion is more a function of a) how well-formed the holster is, and b) user competence. The sights in question, or the Novak sights Heinie took his idea from, have no bearing on holstering or drawing as they are not in contact with the holster at any time, unless you use a flapped holster.

The snagging they refer to is in the over-the-top motion to rack the slide, in that the sights will not snag on the hand itself. Personally I think the sights should have a squarish front face to assist in racking the slide with the non-gun hand, or to assist in racking the slide against a belt or table if one hand is disabled, but YMMV.

Sometimes an entire industry gets it wrong until someone shows the world a better way. Take shampoo or ketchup dispensers. How many of us thought there was no choice but to wait...and wait...for the final few servings to trickle down the upturned bottle? Then packagers realized, "Why not place the spigot on the bottom so people needn't invert the bottle?" The rest is history.

Thanks, NFW.

It's not the holster I'm concerned about snagging on (only mentioned it to describe the dircetion of movement) its nearby clothing and such. And I realize it's not THAT big of a deal. I just think it's strange that, given a choice of which side to angle for reduced snagging, they all chose the angle that promotes return to the holster. Like BigBaller said, "That's just the way combatsights are designed."

Seems to me that most of these cases are ripe for a ketchup-bottle-eqse reinvention (great analogy, Paul). The McGizmo guy clearly gets it, which is encouraging.