Ft. Hood Shootings

[saabgoblin]

Truly horrific.

My best to all the families and loved ones that have been affected by this tragedy.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

"It can only be one or the other, you can't plan to go insane.. " StarHalo quote from page 2......No disrespect intended or excuses offered up for this irrational act. With you same reasoning-
can you plan to stop yourself from going insane, or for that matter even recognize that it is happening?
A good friend of mine has been there- done that.....Ward 4 Walter Reed...has the DD-214 to prove it.....all inclusive thorazine/haldol vacation package for a couple of months. Didn't plan it- it just happened. Didn't hurt anybody.....

Wish there were more people in this world like Don (McGizmo).....wisdom, compassion......patience..does it come from being so in touch with nature- or is it the pure simple beauty of the ocean?

It may be informative to see what truths and information come out about this and whether they will be given any spin; not that it would necessarily be recognizable as such.

Regardless, it is a tragedy. It would seem that this guy failed at the core of his humanity and took lives as a result. I can't imagine what it would be like to counsel soldiers suffering from their experience in battle. Depending on this guys levels of sympathy and empathy, the toll may have been more than he could handle. He may well have felt that some of the military actions being taken were wrong and with the upcoming proposition of being deployed he may have found himself at an impasse. From some of the comments I have read, it sounds like he wanted "out".

It sounds like this guy had obligations that he couldn't handle and snapped. Is it a coincidence that his field of study was the human mind and his apparently failed in reason? I would guess he reached some internal tipping point with a catastrophe resulting.

Just yesterday eve, I opted to put myself in harms way to come to the aid of a man who was clinging to a buoy because he couldn't handle the strong rip current that had swept him out to it. I borrowed a boogie board from a family on the beach because I knew I didn't want to deprive this man from flotation should I fail in my attempt to get him back to shore. I swam out to him with a reasonable idea of my own abilities as well as an idea of what I would be facing. As it turned out, the task was greater than I expected and with about a third of the way still to go, I requested additional horsepower from shore and another swimmer came to my aid and the two of us were then able to make it the rest of the way in. Could I have handled the "rescue" without the added help? Probably, but I was smart enough to know the right move was to ask for more help. With the best of intentions, one can get in over their head. Could that have been what happened here with this guy?

Is it possible that this guy was aiding others who were drowning and ultimately he drowned himself? In hindsight did he seek help that went unanswered? Probably some of you guys can and would pull a trigger simply on instinct. It seems that this guy pulled the trigger countless times as a result of some mental process and decision. What could possibly have been going on in his mind?!? Will we ever know or be privy to any answers?

If anything, I hope some insight and understanding can result from this tragedy. I did read that some of the injuries suffered may have come from friendly fire. That is not trivial and certainly a factor in consideration of who should be armed and who shouldn't, I would imagine.

To be very clear here, I am not trying to defend this man but I do hope those who need to understand what happened can come to an understanding of why he did what he did and how this might be avoided. Capital punishment aside, I am glad that this man is still alive at present and I hope he can provide insight to those who will question him.

Why?

 

[StarHalo]

I'm still baffled by this phenomenon of concern for the mental state of the attacker - I don't recall anytime after 9/11 anyone asking of the main actors "Why didn't we hear their calls for help?" "Is there anything more we could have done to help these poor, mentally anguished men?"

Is it just because he was in the field of psychiatry? I don't know if anyone noticed the earlier post, but his performance in the field was dismal; it's still in question why he was moved from Walter Reed to an army base, but it most likely has something to do with consistently poor reviews. In a profession that requires at least some form of empathy, it's not surprising that someone who feels the US is an enemy and has no place in the Middle East isn't going to do so well assisting grieving American soldiers returning from Iraq/Afghanistan. Hasan may have heard some horror stories, but had he actually been deployed, he would most likely have never seen anything remotely like that level of combat - a mental health specialist is going to be well behind the lines in an air-conditioned room somewhere doing paperwork most of the day (especially since soldiers avoid the stress reset facility, as it makes them look "weak" to their fellow soldiers.)

Another way to view it - Would there be all this concern for his mental state if he were a cook? All the questions about psychological conflict and intense combat-related stress for the potato-peeler who'd never been off the base?

The question of moral choice is the most valid one, and he had already made that choice long ago, that he was already behind enemy lines, working for the aggressor who was going to send him off what he had exaggerated in his mind to be a blood-and-guts frontline in-the-trench all-out war (against those he felt kinship to). His alternative was to go ahead and follow in the footsteps of those great martyrs that he so revered, to take arms now against the enemy he was already amidst, and rejoin the Creator in Heaven everlasting. Basically the same motive for every terrorist and suicide bomber in the modern age - nothing new or profound, nothing learned but the plasticity of man's mind and morals to allow atrocity.

What should draw more attention is the female officer first responder, who rushed headlong into the middle of a catastrophic terrorist attack and boldly faced the attacker without hesitation. Or the officer sitting outside in his pickup truck who, upon hearing gunshots, immediately ran towards it, went directly for the wounded, loaded four into the back of the truck and sped off to the hospital. THAT's the mental state we should be focused on..

 

[Mjolnir]

I don't completely understand the time frame of the events. I heard that the female officer responded to the scene something like 5 minutes after the 911 call. Does that mean that he was shooting people for 5 minutes? Otherwise, how could he still be able to fire at the officer upon her arrival?

 

[tygger]

I'm still baffled by this phenomenon of concern for the mental state of the attacker - I don't recall anytime after 9/11 anyone asking of the main actors "Why didn't we hear their calls for help?" "Is there anything more we could have done to help these poor, mentally anguished men?"

You phrase it as though attempts to understand "why" something like this happens equates sympathy with the attacker or reveals a lack of resolve. Shame on you for such a juvenile statement.

 

[DonShock]

I don't completely understand the time frame of the events. I heard that the female officer responded to the scene something like 5 minutes after the 911 call. Does that mean that he was shooting people for 5 minutes? Otherwise, how could he still be able to fire at the officer upon her arrival?

The local news reports stated the officer and her partner were directing traffic nearby, heard the shooting, and responded. There was a college graduation occuring in a nearby building so I'm assuming that's the extra traffic they were directing. I also heard mention that the shooter was confronted in a courtyard. If so, that would suggest that the shooter had already exited the building. He may have been trying to flee the area or possibly heading to another building for more victims.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

oops...duplicate...sorry

 

[RAGE CAGE]

nothing new or profound, nothing learned but the plasticity of man's mind and morals to allow atrocity.

Well said Sir.......same thing applies to politicians, lawyers and insurance salesmen. I respect your opinion and I am NOT trying to stir this pot.

I need to go look at Don's Maui Time picture gallery for some inner peace. Today is one of those days that I would glady trade all of my flashlights just for one swim with that sea turtle.

 

[StarHalo]

You phrase it as though attempts to understand "why" something like this happens equates sympathy with the attacker or reveals a lack of resolve. Shame on you for such a juvenile statement.

The first paragraph is to illustrate this recurrent strange anomaly of trying to find answers to questions already answered long ago. We already know why terrorists do what they do, so why the drawn out attempt to find some other reason? Are all the relevant facts leading up to the event going to turn out to be errors and the killer revealed as just being a nice guy with a misunderstanding? It all seems a bit off base to me; why not celebrate the actions of the first responders, why not a dialogue about integration in the Armed Forces, or more thorough psychiatric testing of soldiers, etc..

I respect your opinion and I am NOT trying to stir this pot.

And I yours, I'm not trying to agitate either, it's good to see that we can have a debate of this magnitude and depth civilly and without it being moved to the Underground. This is the best serious discourse I've seen on here for a loooog time..

 

[SFG2Lman]

i think even freud would have a hard time coming up with a motivation dark enough to describe what this less-than-a-man did. Even if all the speculation is true, and it was religiously motivated...this man had something seriously broken in his head. I am not trying to excuse his behaviour because it was still of his own volition that this was committed and i fully expect him to be punished in this life and the next.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

And I yours, I'm not trying to agitate either, it's good to see that we can have a debate of this magnitude and depth civilly and without it being moved to the Underground. This is the best serious discourse I've seen on here for a loooog time..

I was thinking the same thing....this stings even worse because it is right before veterans day. Discourse is healthy when civility and respect can be maintained. These seem to be serious times we are living in and it is good to see we can discuss things like these without them spiraling into negativity- to try to understand all aspects of the situation at hand. Seems like our society is so consumed with trivial, vapid issues that real subjects that need to be addressed are swept under the rug.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

i think even freud would have a hard time coming up with a motivation dark enough to describe what this less-than-a-man did. Even if all the speculation is true, and it was religiously motivated...this man had something seriously broken in his head. I am not trying to excuse his behaviour because it was still of his own volition that this was committed and i fully expect him to be punished in this life and the next.

good point...and as you know from being thru basic training- it is more mental than physical for most. They used to break em down and build em back up the way they wanted them. Some are broken down so far that they can not be put back together to mil spec standards. Glad to see you can vent your frustrations here- has to be a super tough time where you are now.

 

[McGizmo]

........ We already know why terrorists do what they do, so why the drawn out attempt to find some other reason? ......

I don't know who we is but I know I am not included. Is it now established that this was nothing more than a terrorist attack here? Regardless, there are many things I know for a certainty but that doesn't mean I understand them. To alter, fix or avoid something, it may require more than knowing about it and perhaps require an understanding into its nature and what brings it about. To this consideration, I post and comment.

I admit to speculation and no knowledge. Here's a real twisted what if for you. Suppose this guy encountered some patients who were so messed up that he even wondered if they would have been better off not making it back. What if he found himself questioning the reasons and justifications of sending our young people over there in harms way. If he shares a religion with some of the innocents over there who unfortunatly become collateral damage he may get it in his mind that we need to stop sending our youth over there. He may have a real aversion to killing and yet know from his training and experience that deaths are necessary for a big picture solution to come about. He knows people are going to die and he may be pretty screwed up in his thinking ( aside from all this speculation, I'd take this one comment as a given!). So in this guy's twisted mind he decides he needs to stop Americans from joining the military like he did and getting into things they shouldn't. He decides that if he takes out some of his own and fellow soldiers in the heartland itself that it would strike terror in those considering joining the military. He may rationalize that those he kills have already signed on with knowledge that they are at risk. I realize this is far fetched but I submit that this would be construed as a terrorist attack given the speculation offered but not one that "we already know". You couldn't know it because I just made it up. But is is possible?

You stated:

His "stress" centered around having to do the service required of him for the government-provided free ride, something every other person in similar circumstances/military service has done without killing all their coworkers. He was seeking help for his problem, by asking his facility colleagues to gin up some medical disorder that could be noted on his record so he could avoid deployment.

Was he stressed or was he a cold blooded and calculating terrorist? Was he both? If he simply wanted to strike terror into his fellow Americans and even possibly get a way with it, why open fire on the base and why not in a mall? Do you know why he went off where and when he did or does it not matter?

If someone near and dear to me where one of his victims, aside from wanting quick and appropriate punishment doled out to him, I would also want to know why???? I don't think a simple label would suffice either.

We know what this guy did and it can't be undone. If those who need to know why he did it as you say you do, do know why, then so be it. If not, lets hope they can find out and understand how to take appropriate measures to safeguard in the future.

I am not trying to stir stuff up here either and I too am grateful that this thread has survived to this point and not been locked. Certainly the UG has its merits and is more appropriate for much of what is on our minds these days but some of this stuff is just too close to home not to be discussed with the hope of some sort of understanding, above ground.

Probably can't make sense of the senseless but it would help to at least get some grip. :shrug:

 

[LuxLuthor]

McGizmo & Star Halo, I think it is even simpler than that. People discuss the shooter, not because we feel sorry for him, but because when something so appalling happens normal people cannot fathom how anyone can do something like this. It is part of the way everyone copes with the shock of atrocities--trying to understand the reason/motivation...and it is looking more and more like this was a cold-blooded religious jehad type action, perhaps induced by his own personal stressors. I'm sure he is already becoming a hero among Islamic fundamentalist/radical terrorists, and giving ideas to groups like al qaeda.

I don't think any of us can imagine actually standing there and shooting at person after person. We understand (and appreciate) the heroics of the police officer (as well as all those others who routinely protect and serve us), but we are in shock at the killer's actions. It is especially bizarre that such a horrific murderer turns out to be an M.D., let alone a Psychiatrist trained in taking care of servicemembers with PTSD. It makes people crazy to even think about these types of situations. That's why there is a focus on him...like there was on the perpetrators of Virginia Tech, Maryland Sniper duo, 911 terrorists, Nazi atrocities, Columbine, etc.

 

[SFG2Lman]

if he is what people are suspecting, its all the more strange as he has a shia last name and shias are traditionally not the type to attack outside their own country, they do in iraq to get us to leave, but they also hate al-qaeda as much as we do. Al-qaeda usually identify themselves as Sunni (though sunnis disown them) so its just very odd to have a guy with an apparent shia name doing this if it is indeed sposed to be that type of attack. (yes i am avoiding saying it for a reason)but again, thats speculation upon speculation upon speculation and only serves to make the situation more muddled than before.

Sorry, I am just rambling through the thoughts in my head...still a bit unreal especially when i went to the PX today for some cleaning supplies and saw armed soldiers standing watch like we were in marshal law...

still my thoughts and prayers go out to the wounded and those families that lost loved ones...what i see in disbelief, they will have to deal with in a very real way, what they saw and what they've lost...

 

[RAGE CAGE]

If you havent already read this- it is the most descriptive article I have seen to date.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125750297355533413.html

I guess some things never make a lot of sense- look back at the North Hollywood Bank Robery shootout- 44 minutes of over a thousand AP rounds fired by 2 shooters wearing home sewn aramid body armor and only the 2 shooters die.
There was a whole heap of luck, grace or whatever you want to call it involved there.I know it was a totally different tactical scenario. Now we have one individual who created 4 minutes of carnage with around 100 rounds.
USS Liberty never made much sense to me either.
Don- I guess anything is possible-and the next year or two may hold some more answers for us all.

 

[will]

I have been following this story on CNN on and off during the day and last evening. AC360 had interviewed the apartment manager where he lived. He was visited by someone in Muslim attire the day before. He had given away most of his furniture to his neighbors. Also, he had been using his next door neighbor's PC on and off since he moved into his apartment, even though he had his own PC.

The day of the shootings he went on to the post in Muslim attire, yet on previous days he would arrive in hospital scrubs.

Either Larry King or Anderson Cooper interviewed a JAG lawyer, Not sure which show that was. The JAG lawyer indicated that the military may have become too Politically Correct. With that comment he explained that this person should have been challenged at some point in his Army Career.

They also interviewed a fellow student in a Masters program they both attended on environmental issues. His presentation was on suicide bombers and how he favored them.

As more and more information comes out about this guy, even if only half of it is correct, he gave many indications that there were problems. I would not try to guess what his diagnosis is according to the DSMO III guide, but he had some serious problems. This attack was a long time in the planning, not just a spur of the moment thing.

My heart goes out to the families of the fallen and the wounded..

I used to ride the Long Island Rail Road into New York City. After 9-11 there were signs on the trains and in the stations that said ' If you see something, Say something, report it'

There have been a number of reports that fellow students and co workers of this guy did in fact say something and yet nothing was done.

 

[dudemar]

but again, thats speculation upon speculation upon speculation and only serves to make the situation more muddled than before.

...which is exactly why I don't talk about this incident much. Until the facts come out all this talk is just speculation. It just serves to make an already tragic and chaotic situation even more confusing.

 

[StarHalo]

People discuss the shooter, not because we feel sorry for him, but because when something so appalling happens normal people cannot fathom how anyone can do something like this.

This is probably the bit of info I've overlooked; I suppose I'm such a newsie that when something like this happens, I just automatically assume everyone else puts together the pieces based on historically similar events, and sees the big picture long before the networks summarize it.. Corporations feel it's better to give incomplete information and be careful rather than just blurting everything out at once and possibly appearing cold and/or bigoted, and this event is a very good example.

To this consideration, I post and comment.

I admit to speculation and no knowledge. Here's a real twisted what if for you.

That is the most remarkably gentle reconstruction of such an event that I've ever seen; very unique compared to the usual ham-fisted rage-filled "why I hate these people" retelling that has become so common in the modern age of the shrill voice. The majority of the points in that paragraph are on the right track, but some key pieces that bring it all together are missing; as I noted above, once you assemble some of the individual news bytes, a clear and consistent picture forms.

It goes something like this - You begin with the *extremist* (not majority or popular) Islamic belief that anything that's not Islamic and is on your Holy Land (which is anywhere that has a lot of Islamic people) is against God and therefore should be destroyed. You don't need any historical info about anything American soldiers have done to Islamic people in the past, the fact that they're present at all means they're horrible people and should die terrible deaths and burn in hell and etc etc. We know that Major Hasan subscribed to this belief because of his lengthy blog treatise equating suicide bombers to a soldier jumping on a grenade, his free and open statements to coworkers about how the US shouldn't be in the Middle East (profound by itself as it's an extreme breach of conduct - he could be jailed just for saying such things as an officer), and his content with the Little Rock recruiting office shooting, among other incidents. It was not just an anti-war belief, Hasan was clearly comfortable with the idea of non-believing "aggressors" being mass murdered outright.

This piece of info alone presents a broad range of insight - You now have this man who is in a position that's supposed to tend to the mental heath of distraught American soldiers, who feels that these soldiers are evil and God-forsaken attackers, and shouldn't be meddling with the people and lands he identifies with. It's a bit like if during the Vietnam conflict, an American soldier were to go to a North Vietnamese psychiatrist for treatment - it's just not going to go well. And it didn't, as his consistently poor reviews showed, and the fact that he was moved out of Walter Reed.

And that's the next key piece - while at Walter Reed, Hasan was at least somewhat removed from the reality of everyday military life, in a professional environment for collegiate training. But once he was dumped into Fort Hood, he was right in the middle of the grunts and on-the-ground soldiers who were coming and going from the front lines, and who had that unique warrior tribe culture that views the enemy as less-than-human. Now he is exposed daily to the open racism and bigotry, the slurs, the resentment, the candor and camaraderie of battle-hardened men who have been fighting and slaughtering the very people he identified with.

This is a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario; Was he extremist at first and then the military lifestyle pushed him, or was he merely resentful of the military and was then lead into extremism? The order doesn't entirely matter as the result is the same; how you order dominoes doesn't make much of a difference after one has been pushed..

So now you have this discontent extremist who views his life as being lived behind enemy lines, constantly bothered by enemy soldiers who shouldn't be doing what they're doing in the first place, bombarded by an entire civilization who doesn't understand his culture and ruins it at every opportunity, and now he has to be sent off to serve in the war against his own people. He goes to his medical field colleagues and does his best to get something, anything on his record that will keep him from having to serve, but they fail him as well. It's all just too much, something has to be done.

Along comes November 5th, and it's another day of preparation at the Readiness Center, a few hundred soldiers going from station to station and checking off those items and documents they need completed before deployment. And the colleagues who declined to notate his record will be there. Hasan will be deployed in a matter of days, so there is no time left and no better opportunity.

Hasan grabs his 20-round-capacity pistol, most likely hides it and drives through the front gate flashing his ID like any other day, no questions asked, walks out to the Readiness Center, shouts the perennial Islamic "God is great" to ensure the enemy knows the supremacy of the Lord's will and is about to be turned over to it, and opens fire on the crowd at a frenetic pace (a soldier first thought they overheard "microwave popcorn".) Moments later, after abandoning the building, while reloading in the courtyard, Sergent Kimberly Munley gets at least one shot very squarely to Hasan's torso and he is finally disabled; he lies on the ground secure in the knowledge that he has made an unavoidable statement that will scare the US out of the Middle East, that he has cut down a great number of the enemy just like the martyrs he so beloved, and is now to be returned to the Creator as a warrior hero who sacrificed himself in battle, Heaven everlasting his reward.

So you can see how the pieces fit together into the bigger picture story, a smooth and seamless retelling made from the individual bits that by themselves were too far out of the ordinary to make much sense. The cultural beliefs blend into the daily lives and culminate in struggle, within and ultimately without. Hasan killed for the glory of his Lord, for a political statement, for revenge made righteous by his beliefs. I don't know that any of the above will provide more understanding, but this is about as close to a Cliff's Notes condensation as it gets.

There have been a number of reports that fellow students and co workers of this guy did in fact say something and yet nothing was done.

Every Titanic requires a comedy of errors to sink, this event being no exception. And now each person who overheard the Major and didn't report it will be facing very serious charges that are on par with sedition.

I guess some things never make a lot of sense- look back at the North Hollywood Bank Robery shootout

That's a whole 'nother Oprah that I've studied in great detail; if you want to hear the whole story, you can start another thread about it, but it actually does culminate in some poignant moral lessons.

 

[Empath]

StarHalo, yours has been removed. Whether it's accurate or not isn't considered, but the tendency to push it into such levels of conflict and personal disagreement should be taken to the Underground.

After reconsideration, I'll again make it visible. If it attracts greater concerns, it will again be removed.

Please continue to respect one another's viewpoints.