Ft. Hood Shootings

[LUPARA]

Empath;
Thanks for leaving StarHalo's post alone. Beginning at the third paragraph, "It goes something like this...." He's talking about Islam (as taught in the Koran), not individuals; which is in itself something that the MSM seems reluctant to do. Simply put; an infidel is anyone that doesn't subscribe to the Koranic teachings; an extremely confusing text (and only in ancient Arabic)that needs tons of other books to explain it i.e. the Haditha. These books in turn, need Imams to further interpret what Muhammed said since there are only a handful of direct "how to" interpretations by Muhammed himself. So really; Imams carry with them a huge amount of power and control. If they teach what the Koran sez; then all of it is extreme in terms of infidels. Basically StarHalo's post could strike a raw nerve; there are many indications that Major Hasan was the recipient of teachings that place him firmly in the idealogically driven jihadist camp. I can only hope that Major Hasan fesses-up so that any doubts and speculation about the incident will be cleared up and the truth be know to all. In summary, this incident is not an anomaly for Islam; what I find truly sickening is the PC of the Pentagon itself and the resulting effect on officers that may have blown the whistle on Major Hasan; but rather, chose to remain silent for fear of reprimand and "hate crime" or "intolerance" accusations. I hope like hell I'm wrong on that.

 

[Lightraven]

Starhalo,

The Army you describe isn't anything like what I know.

 

[StarHalo]

Starhalo,

The Army you describe isn't anything like what I know.

I'm not the only one trying to complete the puzzle with the pieces I have, feel free to contribute..

 

[Lightraven]

Starhalo,

I didn't want to overly criticize since some of your other postings are more or less in line with my thoughts.

As for the U.S. Army:

Army officers do not face jail for openly disagreeing with a war in the middle east.

The Army is not openly racist or bigotted at all. It isn't even secretly racist or bigotted.

The "unique warrior tribe culture" of the U.S. Army is not unique, not a tribe since almost anyone can join and not really much of a culture. I know it's a common cliche, but I consider it overwrought and probably only describes special forces like the Rangers, SEALs and a few others whose entire life and identity revolves around their job. Most soldiers do not have combat specialties or much combat training. The Fort Hood shooter is a good example.

U.S. soldiers do not view their enemies as less than human. I have never read or heard any veteran describe enemies that way. Our soldiers may or may not respect their enemies, may or may not hate them, but they are fully aware they are people, with all that implies.

The "candor and camaraderie of battle hardened men who have fought and slaughtered" is somewhat ridiculous. This isn't Band of Brothers. The vast majority of troops have no direct combat experience, let alone "slaughtering" anybody. Some are women.

Finally, soldiers experience many personal problems (like the shooter himself, arguably) but from what I understand, the vast majority are related to girlfriends and wives and financial issues, not the stress of combat. In all likelihood, the shooter would have received a long line of 19 year olds crying to him because their girlfriends dumped them while they were overseas or they were having trouble paying the bills. Those traumatized by combat were probably a very small minority and probably mostly injured soldiers.

 

[SFG2Lman]

this is to some extent true lightraven, but 98% of soldiers that have deployed have had their compound mortared at least once while being there, and the helplessness this makes one feel can be enough to scar people. Not knowing where it will land and what damage it will do can get to people. My cousin still doesn't like fireworks shows (we used to shoot them at each other before he left) So to some extent everyone that deploys gets exposed to combat, whether its hand to hand and face to face, or bombs falling from the sky.

 

[StarHalo]

I didn't want to overly criticize since some of your other postings are more or less in line with my thoughts.

You bring up some good points and I should be more specific - In some areas of my retelling, I have made an effort to draw the reader into the shooter's point of view, which means exaggerating where his mind might have. Professionalism and diversity is what sets the American armed forces apart and above other armies of the world, and Maj Hasan most likely worked with men and women who treated him very well, above and beyond what he might even experience in a civilian office environment.

But when you have an individual who lives the extremist state of mind 24/7, molehills become mountains; in a place where soldiers are just returning from the war, and others are being sent back yet again for second and third tours of duty, it would not be out of place to occasionally encounter a disdainful point of view of the enemy, maybe just one "nickname for those people" here, or a "why they're not civilized" statement there, which is all it would take to set off someone looking for a reason to be set off.

Your statements are much closer to the truth, but my statement is geared more towards the mindset..

 

[Patriot]

Thanks for leaving StarHalo's post alone. Beginning at the third paragraph, "It goes something like this...." He's talking about Islam (as taught in the Koran), not individuals; which is in itself something that the MSM seems reluctant to do. Simply put; an infidel is anyone that doesn't subscribe to the Koranic teachings; an extremely confusing text (and only in ancient Arabic)that needs tons of other books to explain it i.e. the Haditha. These books in turn, need Imams to further interpret what Muhammed said since there are only a handful of direct "how to" interpretations by Muhammed himself. So really; Imams carry with them a huge amount of power and control. If they teach what the Koran sez; then all of it is extreme in terms of infidels. Basically StarHalo's post could strike a raw nerve; there are many indications that Major Hasan was the recipient of teachings that place him firmly in the idealogically driven jihadist camp.

+1

The Muslim faith provides no guarantee of "heaven" unless they die in the act of jihad. This very well could have been a well reasoned, at least in the mind of a Islamic fundamentalist, motivation for the act.

A lot of speculation going on in this thread but I don't think StarHalo's outside of the reasonable realm of it. That is to say, I have no problem with him suspecting that this was nothing more than a terrorist act since there are some pretty good initial indications for this so far. I neither have an issue about people trying to understand what happened in the mind of Hasan. Lux Luthor pretty much captured my thoughts in his previous post but it's only natural to ask why. Either he was schizophrenic or it was a reasoned action. Whatever folks want to speculate towards at this point seems fair and I don't even think there's grounds for debate yet.

Historically, at least in western culture, it doesn't matter why one intentionally murders innocent people, the judgment is usually the same. Whether Hasan was a mad man or "rational" in his own mind, I don't think he deserves any sympathy...not saying that anyone has said that either. I'm just speaking generally.

Wrong doing is an everyday theme for the human race and that has been the case past, present and will be in the future. If mankind doesn't grasp the root basis for morality, acts of immorality are likely to be more prevailent. Apart from this event, just watch the local news one evening or question why everything we own has a key or a security measure associated with it. Ask yourselves why we take measures to prevent our children being ubducted, why employers spy on employees, or why it's not wise for a female to walk in a dark, secluded parking lot alone. It's not because we're untrusting by nature, it's because we're unconsciously, conscious of the condition of humanity. That is to say, we go about our daily lives in recognition of some problem in the world, as evidence of our routines yet we rarely give much thought as to why we practice them or what it is that's at the root of the problem we're trying to guard against.

 

[Lightraven]

SFG2Lman,

I defer to anybody still in uniform. The 98% figure surprises me, but I don't have any contradictory information.

StarHalo,

I thought maybe that was the case, but it was told from a factual point of view--the Army is openly racist. I'll bet he dealt with worse growing up. Make no mistake, soldiers do call their enemies names. That's as old as humanity. That's different than racism or bigotry. These people are trying to kill us and do not earn any politeness for doing so.

I have a unique and possibly very unpopular view of this shooting, which I won't mention. However, I think it may defy the usual labels of terrorism or mentally unstable active shooter.

 

[StarHalo]

Shifting to a less speculative element for a moment: We now know that Hasan was armed with two pistols, an FN Herstal Five-Seven semi-automatic pistol and a Smith&Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, neither of which are Army issue, so we know he purchased these guns privately/himself at some earlier date. It's not clear if the revolver was used at all, and even if it were, the 5- or 6-round capacity means it may have only been briefly involved; the Five-Seven was the main weapon used for most, if not all, of the attack.

The Five-Seven was originally misreported as a .22 caliber pistol, due to carelessly equating the roughly equal caliber size of the two rounds; obviously a cause of some confusion since it would be very difficult to create such havoc with a tiny .22 sporting pistol. So here's a brief overview of the differences and better picture of what sort of weapon Hasan was using:

The FN Five-Seven:

It's a "plastic"/polymer-bodied semi-automatic handgun that retails for about $1500 (you probably won't find a street/non-registered copy). The first thing you notice right away (aside from your flashaholic eyes being drawn to the Surefire) are the bullets laying around the gun - those are the 5.7mm rounds, very clearly not at all related to .22 rounds. Although it seems the photographer just placed a random large handful around the gun, that's actually the capacity of the magazine, 20 rounds. And there are three magazines included with the gun - by buying just the gun and one box of ammo, you have everything you need to carry 50 rounds ready-to-fire with no further purchases/equipment.

The blue-tipped rounds above are Government-only Kevlar-piercing rounds, civilians can only buy the "sporting" non tipped rounds, seen here between a .22 and 9mm:

Again, the 5.7mm is definitely not a .22. The 5.7mm was originally developed for a military sub-machine gun, the FN P90, seen here above the Five-Seven:

That's certainly no plinking rifle; it's the weapon carried by the US Secret Service, as it's guaranteed to lay down a crowd of people regardless of what they're wearing or protected by. And its ammo is the same one found in the Five-Seven.

Since the .22 isn't a fair comparison, we can compare it to a 9mm round in ballistic gelatin; Top is 9mm, bottom is 5.7mm:

The 9mm goes completely through the 12" block, creating a correspondingly large entry hole, a notable tumble, and leaving a 9mm puncture on the way out. The 5.7 also goes through the block, with an expected smaller entry and exit, but a remarkably disproportionate wound cavity as it tumbles, roughly three inches in diameter. This is clearly a round designed for the military.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion on how so much damage was done with apparently one small pistol. As of today, nine of those injured are still in intensive care in critical condition; reports indicate that Hasan would approach the wounded and shoot for the head, so the death toll will probably climb in the coming days..

 

[Kevin1322]

Wow. That was very informative info on the weapon StarHalo. Thanks.

 

[Mjolnir]

Thanks for that Starhalo. The last info that I heard had been of the gun being a ".22," which did not make much sense to me, even though I know very little about firearms when compared to many of you. I had no idea up until now that he was essentially firing P90 ammo, and the P90 is one serious instrument.
Those 5.7mm rounds look almost like shorter 5.56 rounds; it seems to me they are much closer to rifle rounds then more "conventional" handgun rounds.

 

[tygger]

I thought maybe that was the case, but it was told from a factual point of view--the Army is openly racist. I'll bet he dealt with worse growing up. Make no mistake, soldiers do call their enemies names. That's as old as humanity. That's different than racism or bigotry. These people are trying to kill us and do not earn any politeness for doing so.

How is that different from racism or bigotry? Is not the point of war to dehumanize the enemy to better enable soldiers to fight?

 

[Lightraven]

How is that different from racism or bigotry? Is not the point of war to dehumanize the enemy to better enable soldiers to fight?

Simple.
Racism is specific to race.
Bigotry is specific to some other trait that is usually not chosen, such as religion, gender or sexual orientation.

Then, there is the contempt for those who are trying to kill you.

 

[turbodog]

Thanks for that Starhalo. The last info that I heard had been of the gun being a ".22," which did not make much sense to me, even though I know very little about firearms when compared to many of you. I had no idea up until now that he was essentially firing P90 ammo, and the P90 is one serious instrument.
Those 5.7mm rounds look almost like shorter 5.56 rounds; it seems to me they are much closer to rifle rounds then more "conventional" handgun rounds.

Good info from starhalo. Worth pointing out that 5.7 mm is only 2% larger diameter bullet than .22 caliber. Hence, the rounds could easily be described as .22 caliber.

5.7/25.4= .2244

This has nothing to do with bullet velocities, energy, shape, etc. It's simply a note about bullet diameter/caliber.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

The FN Five-Seven:

It's a "plastic"/polymer-bodied semi-automatic handgun that retails for about $1500 (you probably won't find a street/non-registered copy). The first thing you notice right away (aside from your flashaholic eyes being drawn to the Surefire) are the bullets laying around the gun - those are the 5.7mm rounds, very clearly not at all related to .22 rounds. Although it seems the photographer just placed a random large handful around the gun, that's actually the capacity of the magazine, 20 rounds. And there are three magazines included with the gun - by buying just the gun and one box of ammo, you have everything you need to carry 50 rounds ready-to-fire with no further purchases/equipment.

The blue-tipped rounds above are Government-only Kevlar-piercing rounds, civilians can only buy the "sporting" non tipped rounds


Again, the 5.7mm is definitely not a .22. The 5.7mm was originally developed for a military sub-machine gun, the FN P90, seen here above the Five-Seven:

That's certainly no plinking rifle; it's the weapon carried by the US Secret Service, as it's guaranteed to lay down a crowd of people regardless of what they're wearing or protected by. And its ammo is the same one found in the Five-Seven.

Since the .22 isn't a fair comparison, we can compare it to a 9mm round in ballistic gelatin; Top is 9mm, bottom is 5.7mm:

The 9mm goes completely through the 12" block, creating a correspondingly large entry hole, a notable tumble, and leaving a 9mm puncture on the way out. The 5.7 also goes through the block, with an expected smaller entry and exit, but a remarkably disproportionate wound cavity as it tumbles, roughly three inches in diameter. This is clearly a round designed for the military.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion on how so much damage was done with apparently one small pistol. As of today, nine of those injured are still in intensive care in critical condition; reports indicate that Hasan would approach the wounded and shoot for the head, so the death toll will probably climb in the coming days..

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)
SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)
10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy[/FONT]

 

[Owen]

babble, stolen pic, repeat..

Wow, government only, AP...Hornady V-Maxes. That's a new one.
Maybe you should just credit the sites you stole your pics from, and shut up, since you're about totally clueless.
btw, those "tips" that we "can't buy" are polymer, and cover the hollowpoint you moron.

 

[Empath]

This thread is done.

Creation of a new thread on the topic will be permitted, but if so, let's leave out religious speculation. Referencing news source reports of religious incidentals is okay, but speculating, making claims that the actions are a result of a particular religious belief, and "educating" us on religions will need to be addressed in the Underground.

It's time to back up, and start over.