Toyota Recalls - Observations?

[Random Guy]

... I was also paying closer attention and did see the rpms increase/decrease with no position change in the pedal...

...He explained that the ECU/PCM/ECM (whatever you want to call the brains of the car) was relearning everything and it would drive like crap for the first 10 miles or so. I asked why they didnt do this for us, because the car was actually quite frightening to drive. They said they didnt like to put miles on customers cars. I then told them, well you should reconsider that when it may be something that could catch someone off guard. Literally felt like you could lose control at anytime.

My fiancee is about 20-30 years younger than the average Avalon buyer (my mom has one too, and hers does the same but not as noticeable as my fiancee's) and she was completely caught off-guard, imagin an older driver.

I asked why the ECU had to relearn shift patterns (still thinking it was tranny related). He said that it wasnt the tranny and what they had done was replace the O2 sensors and clear the current programming so the car could learn new fuel tables/etc...

If youre like me and have a modern peformance car with a lot of work done to it, you know the importance of the "tune" with modern cars that are "drive by wire".

Now I argued with him a little longer because I was upset that they would turn over a car to us in this condition, and still thinking along the lines of transmission issues, I wasnt buying his ECU theory. Again, I was leaning towards something more mechanical versus electronic. So we went back and forth on transient fuel tables, timing, and fuel pressure and how none of that would affect programmed shift patterns.

NOW, however, it all makes sense. They were most likely aware of this problem for some time and could've acted on it. The pedal fix IMO is nothing more than a band-aid, or cover-up to fix the real problem which lies in the brain of the car.

Toyotas have a great history of reliability, but any company that blatantly hides quality issues,expecially those which can endanger the lives of their customers should be held accountable. Not everyone is going to think clearly to put the car in neutral, and turning it off would be a very bad idea for an older driver as they would/could potentially have a very difficult time steering the car clear. And if its like my fiancees car (push button start), it wont turn off if the car is in gear.

I'm actually thinking of looking into the Lemon Law regarding her car. Can any vehicle have issues...absolutely...but just as the American car companies were guilty in the 70's and 80's of hiding known safety issues, Toyota is guilty now.

The car still has the issue, although less noticeable unless you use cruise control. This is when the car has a very unsafe acceleration back to the "set" speed when you resume, or go up a hill that causes the car to fall below the cruise setting.

Again, not Toyota bashing, I just want them to do the right thing, and IMO that is buy the car back or admit the real problem and prove they have a fix.

When we took the car in for the recall repair, we were called the next day by the dealership and asked if we wanted to sell the car to them. Not even for a new car, just sell the car to them because it was so "clean". Thats just a little too suspicious to me...sorry if that smells of conspiracy theory but thats how I felt.

The PCM having to relearn setpoints after being reset is very common. Due to the fact that there are normal variations from engine to engine, and variations from sensor to sensor for all of the sensors on the car, the PCM adapts it's programming to best suit the engine and sensors installed in the car. When it is reset, it must relearn these setpoints. Till it does that, the car will run weird. This is so common amongst cars that it is a general recommendation if you reset the computer before getting your emissions tested, that you drive 15-20 miles so the computer can relearn things.

My mother owned a Camry, and said she could always tell when someone else drove it, as the shift patterns would be different. It's just a feature of the car.

Also, modern cars with electronic spark timing (just about everything these days, my '86 S10 has it), variable valve timing, electronic fuel injection, and drive by wire, the "tune" is completely controlled by the computer. And, it may change depending on how you drive the car. (I.E. if you are doing lots of full throttle work, the computer decides you want performance and optimizes the tune for that. You do lots of gentle acceleration, the computer decides you want economy and optimized the tune for that.)


All cars I've ever driven will always cruise-resume at full throttle from a lower speed; it's just so you return to your set speed as quickly as possible (the cruise will still cut off if you touch the brake). And if you encounter a big enough hill while on cruise, it will downshift and hold the lower gear longer than usual to overcome the grade, but not use any more throttle than is necessary to hold the set speed (this is why the manual says not to use cruise in hilly areas).

That seems normal. Think about it. If the cruse control computer was programmed not to be able to use full throttle, people would get mad because the car would lose speed going up hills or be slow to recover speed/accelerate back up to speed because it was programmed not to be able to floor it.

 

[flashlightpower]

My mother owned a Camry, and said she could always tell when someone else drove it, as the shift patterns would be different. It's just a feature of the car.

Thats true it is a feature of the car to "learn" the driver, but her car behaved this way when only she drove the car long before I ever drove the car. And regardless of what you may think, the car doesnt change that drastically from driver to driver.


All cars I've ever driven will always cruise-resume at full throttle from a lower speed; it's just so you return to your set speed as quickly as possible (the cruise will still cut off if you touch the brake). And if you encounter a big enough hill while on cruise, it will downshift and hold the lower gear longer than usual to overcome the grade, but not use any more throttle than is necessary to hold the set speed (this is why the manual says not to use cruise in hilly areas).

I have four cars and not one of them behaves the way her car does on resume. All gradually resume to speed, and I have been in other Toyotas that resume normally. Of course there are times when any car is going to apply more throttle to get back to speed, the difference is her car rarely holds the speed accurately for long, and will often go beyond the set speed and then fall back to the cruise speed and it will do this on as level as road as you will get. (east Arkansas I-40 for example).

The PCM having to relearn setpoints after being reset is very common. Due to the fact that there are normal variations from engine to engine, and variations from sensor to sensor for all of the sensors on the car, the PCM adapts it's programming to best suit the engine and sensors installed in the car. When it is reset, it must relearn these setpoints. Till it does that, the car will run weird. This is so common amongst cars that it is a general recommendation if you reset the computer before getting your emissions tested, that you drive 15-20 miles so the computer can relearn things.

Obviously a car will need to learn again when a PCM is reflashed. However, the behaviors her car did were unacceptable. I have been in plenty of cars with reflashed PCMs, I have two hand-held programmers of my own for two of my vehicles and I have never experienced what her car did that day any of the times when I've loaded new tunes. When a car is relearning its parameters its adjusting everything from fuel to shift patterns, and most other things that it does during that time are completely transparent to the driver. Her car drove as though the engine was about to fall out followed closely behind by the tranny.

Look Toyotas are great cars overall.

My whole point in posting this is that clearly there are cars with issues and the more this is investigated, the more it appears related to the electronics. If thats the case and Toyota had some idea that this was happening (over 8 months ago when we had this service done by the dealer) then they did not act in good faith and could've possibly prevented some of the significant accidents that occured over the years.

Again this is speculative and I'm not bashing Toyota, just relating an experience to everyone to draw their own conclusion. If you guys want to continue to defend Toyota have at it, but don't dismiss what has happened with our Avalon as "normal" behavior because I can guarantee you it was not.

 

[Brigadier]

Um, if your accelerator is stuck, USE THE BRAKES!!!

No car is too powerful for its brakes. Watch an NHRA top fuel eliminator smoke its tires while not moving. It's front brakes are holding it in place. Even 5000 HP can't overpower their brakes.

Road racers heel-toe their cars - they apply the brakes with their heel while keeping the engine revved up in the power band, so that when they RELEASE the brakes, THEN they accelerate.

 

[flashlightpower]

Um, if your accelerator is stuck, USE THE BRAKES!!!

No car is too powerful for its brakes. Watch an NHRA top fuel eliminator smoke its tires while not moving. It's front brakes are holding it in place. Even 5000 HP can't overpower their brakes.

Road racers heel-toe their cars - they apply the brakes with their heel while keeping the engine revved up in the power band, so that when they RELEASE the brakes, THEN they accelerate.

+1000000000000

Unfortunately people stop thinking when they get in a car. Just listen to the audio of the call in the Lexus, tragic as it was, even more tragic was no one slamming on the brakes.

 

[get-lit]

If the car is already moving a decent speed, the engine will quickly overpower the brakes because once the brakes heat up, they no longer work.

I know the woman in the Lexus was discussed, but I haven't seen anyone discuss the family of three in another Lexus. In that case, the driver tried the brakes, and they could not slow the car once they heated up. The ignition could not be turned off because of a lock feature, and the Lexus shifter will not disengage drive unless a minimum speed is reached. The bottom line is that trying to make cars smarter than people by over-riding their actions is fatal. If you need a car turned off, you should not be restricted from doing so. If you need the gear disengaged, you should not be restricted from doing so. You can't take operational control away from the driver and expect that to be safer. It's ridiculous. The driver of this Lexus should NOT have been restricted from turning the car off or disengaging the gear. He was an off-duty police officer, so he knew what he was doing, he just wasn't allowed by the car..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03m7fmnhO0I

 

[flashlightpower]

If the car is already moving a decent speed, the engine will quickly overpower the brakes because once the brakes heat up, they no longer work. The driver of the Lexus tried the bakes, and they could not slow the car once they heated up.

Most people only use about 40-50% of their cars braking ability, I dont know what all happened in that car but if they were just riding the brakes softly or pumping them (a no-no for modern cars) then I could see the brake fluid getting hot and diminishing braking ability, so then shift to neutral

It was a sad sad event but I really think it could've been avoided but you never know unless your put in the same situation.

May they rest in peace.

 

[flashlightpower]

The ignition could not be turned off because of a lock feature, and the Lexus shifter will not disengage drive unless a minimum speed is reached.

We have two Avalons in our family and I know they will shift to neutral, if thats true about the Lexus then they should be held accountable to the highest punishment. That would be incredibly stupid and against the law, if it isnt already.

 

[get-lit]

If you are driving 65 mph and the gas is pegged with a decent engine, the brakes will not stop it, because by the time you slow to 40, the brakes are over heated and the engine will trump the brakes.

..if thats true about the Lexus then they should be held accountable to the highest punishment. That would be incredibly stupid and against the law, if it isnt already.

That's exactly how I feel. I looked into this some weeks ago and found that Lexus did lock the gear in drive above a certain speed. You also had to depress an ignition button for a set number of seconds before it would respond while moving. Emergencies don't wait, and few people would ever know they had to wait. They would try it and realize it doesn't work. What's next, do we have to enter our social security number on a keypad and answer a quick math question to turn it off?

Above all, I wonder how it came to be that the operation of the vehicle by the driver should be over-ridden. Somewhere, somehow, at some point, some person thought that would be a good idea. I'd like to meet that person, and ask him, just what was he thinking?

The family will always be in my thoughts.

 

[blasterman]

I have a Mazda 3 that has the same problem as the Toyotas. Pretty sure it's related to something with the floor mats because a friend of mine has the same problem and that's how he fixed it.

When your beefy four-popper surges at mach 1 on a snowy expressway at rush hour you'd better hope you have an extra pair of pants because it's scary as hell.

Also, putting the care in neutral is a good way to do serious engine damage. Hitting the breaks doesn't help either because the combination of ABS and moving at 70mph makes slamming on the brake pedal nearly useless.

I shut my engine off and coasted. Surprisingly I didn't lose power steering or control.

 

[Monocrom]

I have a 2009 Mazda6 V6 model. When I barely touch the brakes while coasting at slower speeds, my baby surges forward just a tiny bit; and then begins to slow. Bit weird. When I give the brake-pedal a firm push, she doesn't do that; ever! I chalk it up to a personality quirk. (Yes, I realize I'm talking about a car.)

As far as electronics and gizmos go, I went for the sSport trim. The least expensive trim level that comes with the sweet V6. Why? I just hate having a ton of electronic do-dads that prevent me from driving the way I want to drive. I'm intelligent and experienced when it comes to driving. I don't want a car that overrides my driving decisions, and then does what it thinks is best for me. Call me crazy, I doubt that there are a ton of drivers out there who are truly mentally handicapped. Why build cars for such individuals?

 

[paulr]

Audi had some uncontrolled acceleration incidents related to engine computers in the early 1990's. Since then they put in an automatic cutout in the brake system, so stepping on the brake always closes the throttle, overriding the computer. That just seems sensible to me and apparently Toyota recently started doing it too, on models that have had these problems. But it just sounds like sensible engineering to me, and every car should do it.

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

When your beefy four-popper surges at mach 1 on a snowy expressway at rush hour you'd better hope you have an extra pair of pants because it's scary as hell.

+1. There's a lot of of people here who have never had to operate an out of control car and make it seem easier than it may really be. If it is in fact a computer problem and the engine just keeps revving at full force, I can only hope and pray someone in that situation has the right instincts to take control of the situation immediately.

 

[jsmitty1967]

I just had something kind of funny to add. My friend is a fire safety engineer at the Toyota factory in Georgetown KY. They got a visit from Mr. Toyoda Yesterday. He came into the plant in a convey of 8 vehicles. All were Toyota... except the Chevy Suburban he got out of.

 

[Monocrom]

I just had something kind of funny to add. My friend is a fire safety engineer at the Toyota factory in Georgetown KY. They got a visit from Mr. Toyoda Yesterday. He came into the plant in a convey of 8 vehicles. All were Toyota... except the Chevy Suburban he got out of.

Most likely, the Suburban was an armored vehicle that was borrowed from a Protection company. They're more common than an armoured Toyota.

Still, good thing there weren't any reporters on hand trying to get a comment from him. One snap-shot of him climbing out of that Chevy would have been the biggest P.R. nightmare since . . . this current one.

 

[Random Guy]

...Also, putting the care in neutral is a good way to do serious engine damage. Hitting the breaks doesn't help either because the combination of ABS and moving at 70mph makes slamming on the brake pedal nearly useless.

I shut my engine off and coasted. Surprisingly I didn't lose power steering or control.

Modern cars will not let you rev the engine fast enough to damage it. My mom's 2005 Mazda Tribute with the V6 will not rev over about 4500 RPM in neutral (fuel or ignition cut), even with the pedal to the floor.

If you left the car in gear after you killed the engine, it would have continued to turn, driving the PS pump and giving you manifold vacuum for the power brakes.

paulr, if you are thinking of the same fiasco I am, the sudden acceleration problem Audi had was related to people flooring the gas instead of the brake, and the recall was to install interlocks that would not let you take the car out of park unless your foot was on the brake.

 

[get-lit]

Let me just say this.. once the car becomes a death trap, who really cares about the engine? Seriously.

If all else failed, you'd see me trying to pour sugar down the gas tank at 120 mph. What does the engine matter once you're dead.

 

[Flying Turtle]

If you left the car in gear after you killed the engine, it would have continued to turn, driving the PS pump and giving you manifold vacuum for the power brakes.

You know, I never thought of that. Makes good common sense [slap forehead]. I think my immediate reaction to uncontrolled revving would be to pop it in Neutral, then kill the engine.

Thanks Random.

Geoff

 

[derangboy]

Um, if your accelerator is stuck, USE THE BRAKES!!!

No car is too powerful for its brakes. Watch an NHRA top fuel eliminator smoke its tires while not moving. It's front brakes are holding it in place. Even 5000 HP can't overpower their brakes.

Road racers heel-toe their cars - they apply the brakes with their heel while keeping the engine revved up in the power band, so that when they RELEASE the brakes, THEN they accelerate.

Warming up drag slicks is a whole different ball game. Traction is deliberately broken to spin the tires. I think you have heal/toe method of shifting confused with something else.

First, my car is a 1976 280 SEL Benz. It has 4 wheel disc brakes and the curb weight is just over 4000 lbs. The throttle linkage is comprised entirely of rods and cranks, including a link to the transmission for kick down.
One fine winter morning I was on my way to work doing about 90 km/h. The traffic ahead stopped and I put a foot on the brake, then another. I was able to slow the car to just about 80 but I was going to hit someone if I didn't think of something fast.
1) shift to neutral
2) pull over and shut down the engine
Just before I took my hand off the wheel, I pulled up on the accelerator with my toe. That did the trick. I completed my commute with a dog lead attached to the pedal
My car claims to put out 140 hp on a good day and all the good days are long gone. I was still unable to overpower the engine to slow the car significantly. If you keep the appropriate following distance, you should have a chance to remedy the problem before you hit someone. The stickyness was a result of ice and dirt building up in the pivots. I now clean and grease the whole shebang twice a year.

No manufacturer should be putting out a product that puts its users or others at unreasonable risk. It is also the responsibility of the operator to be aware of the condition of the equipment. It's unfortunate that we seem to be engineering all the thinking out of driving a car.

I have the greatest respect for Toyota as a company and any compromise that may have transgressed is possibly no worse than any other auto company. Firestone comes to mind.

 

[paulr]

This is pretty horrendous, to hear all these stories of accelerator pedals sticking or getting caught in floor mats. Are pedals and floor mats really that badly designed? I have been wondering whether floor mat-related recalls really are "the dog ate my homework", i.e. covering up a more complex problem. Why are floor mats (loose mats on the floorboard) even allowed to exist? Maybe they should all be required to be glued or sewn down so they can't slide into the gas pedal.

As a computer guy my suspicion is still a bit fixated on the software. The amount of computer code in cars is just inhuman. According to this IEEE Spectrum article, the F-22 Raptor fighter has about 1.7 million lines of code, the F-35 will have about 5.7 million, the Boeing 787 Dreamliner will have about 6.5 million, but a modern car of today has around 100 million and the amount will probably double or triple in the near future. How much of that code has safety implications, I don't know. It scares me. I have a 1998 Honda with manual tranny, hand cranked windows, and non-powered brakes, and I think I want to keep driving it til it falls apart, rather than buy a computerized car.

 

[Monocrom]

The floor mats on my Mazda6 are held down by a couple of flat plastic hooks that are very thick. They fit into corresponding holes that are chrome reinforced. In case you spill something on your floor mat, or need to take it out to shake out the dirt; gluing or sewing them in place would be a headache. Also, it seems mainly to be the dealers who are saying Toyota owners are to blame; and coming up with this floor mat excuse.