Flight takedown buy li-on batteries!!!!How can we trust them in our pocket??

[jjp888]

Recently many flight companies are bringing strict rules on carrying lion batteries on -board.How could some lion battery explode by themselves?.The Malasian airline that went missing was found carrying a consignment of lion batteries.What make them trigger themselves ?? .And the flight investigators admitted that the on board fire fighting technique is not effective for li-on batteries the fire fighting is done by cutting oxygen supply to the fire but these Li-on batteries can generate their own oxygen(a self sustained mechanism).Yes they are the "LIONS" of the batteries but something must be there to tame it!!.
I know there are many flashaholics (including me, Iam a great fan of 18650)who love li-ons for their raw power and runtimes and they ( like me ) are now feeling little nervous when we put them in our edc flashlight and carry them inside our deep pockets.
If anybody can explain why it self destructed? or about any warnings or precautions to prevent it please share , so everyone can use it safely.

Is there any reasons for us flashaholics to be concerned about it, particularly when we use it in single cell flashlights???.

Also please share any latest incidents related to li-ons and if possible their causes too.

 

[Dknight16]

I don't see an issue. It's the high voltage and high kWh batteries used to run major power and control systems that represent risk.

 

[dc38]

Improperly packed LI Ions are prone to bumping, jostling, shorting, etc. Usually if quality cells are packed properly, there shouldnt be much risk of venting. Also, was it explicitly stated that LI ION cells caused the crash? Any number of electronics (cell phones, laptops) contain LIIONs.

 

[more_vampires]

Recently many flight companies are bringing strict rules on carrying lion batteries on -board.

Sounds like a panic knee-jerk reaction by management with little knowledge on the topic.

To ban all lithium ion on all flights would outlaw all laptops, cellphones, and even some medical devices. Hey, if they control the company and think they can get away with it, that's management's call.

 

[yellow]

how about Your
* cellular phone?
* laptop?

--> there are WAY other (and most of them wich much more powerful batteries) devices, than flashlight batteries.
In MUCH higher number PRESENT at whatever occasion
are they not "dangerous"?
Or what?

consider this!


PS: ... already typed by both dc38 and more vampires ...

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Sounds like a panic knee-jerk reaction by management with little knowledge on the topic.

To ban all lithium ion on all flights would outlaw all laptops, cellphones, and even some medical devices. Hey, if they control the company and think they can get away with it, that's management's call.

I don't think they know li-ion batteries are in those devices or really notice they carry potentially dangerous batteries. I think the batteries were either stored outside a proper container or they looked in the container which set off a red flag. With that said if li-ions are improperly stored or abused that's when they become angry. Nothing to worry about if you take care of them.

 

[thedoc007]

The Malaysian airline that went missing was found carrying a consignment of lion batteries.

The flight was carrying some lithium ion cells. The aircraft was never found. One cannot assume that the cells had anything at all to due with the disappearance of the aircraft.

If anybody can explain why it self destructed? or about any warnings or precautions to prevent it please share , so everyone can use it safely.

Who says they did? Certainly the failure modes of lithium-ion cells are well known...but again, you are making a big assumption that they did self-destruct. No one knows one way or the other.

Is there any reasons for us flashaholics to be concerned about it, particularly when we use it in single cell flashlights???.

If you buy quality cells, and keep them within the recommended voltage range, they are pretty darn safe. Lithium-ion cells wouldn't be so ubiquitous if they were truly risky.

Also please share any latest incidents related to li-ons and if possible their causes too.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...of-lithium-chemistry-failures-in-flash-lights

No need to start a new thread when there are already other threads devoted to this purpose.

 

[jjp888]

Infact the guys investigated fires started due to lions , assumes that one li-on gets overheated some how and it vents and the other neighbouring cells also gets overheated and vents and this causes a chain of explotion.The gases it leaks before explosion are very toxic and flammable.

Another fire caused inside a smaller aircraft was reportedly from a pilots backpack , and it was later found out that the li-on inside his flashlight caused the fire.

Even , the top airline officials have conducted tests to find out the exploding power of 5000 lions , and it had enough power to break open a closed aircraft cabin.They exploded it by just overheating one battery.

But still passengers are allowed to take their laptops and cell-phones on the flight ?????

 

[jjp888]

Thank doc007 for sharingthe link.It seems like after reading all those stories I might end up digging a pit and dispose off all my 18650's and switch to aa's.But then , what about my laptop battery (which contains 6 -cell), which I use always (ofcourse on my lap) and my cell -phone li-ons. It seems like there is no escaping from li-on batteries.May some genious scientist invent something more safer battery chemistry..........

 

[more_vampires]

after reading all those stories I might end up digging a pit and dispose off all my 18650's and switch to aa's.

No, don't do that. Mail me your unwanted lithium ion and lion lights. I'll pay shipping.

It seems like there is no escaping from li-on batteries.

Correct. Even if you get rid of yours, there'll be one sitting next to you on the airplane.

May some genious scientist invent something more safer battery chemistry..........

Not that it's dangerous. The real issue is news media fearmongering. If you consider the literally millions and millions of lion cells in daily use, even by children, don't forget that you're going to hear the stories of that guy who tried putting his in the microwave oven or took a hammer to it.

The more devices in the wild, the more you're going to hear about someone peeing on it and hurting themselves. It doesn't mean it will happen to you.

 

[MidnightDistortions]

I've seen a li-ion cell break cellphone screens, yet they operate fine albeit with reduced capacity. I abused many li-ion laptop batteries and none of them presented any danger. The more i learn about li-ion cells the more i don't mind having them around or using them in a flashlight. Just use common sense when using them and you won't have to worry about them. With all sorts of safety features on laptops and cellphones they are safer than driving a car on icy or snowy roads.

If li-ion cells were really that dangerous i don't really think they'd have them in cellphones or laptops. The stories that involve li-ion explosions is mostly from uneducated folks who did not read the fine print of what li-ions can do when abused. But it would be the same as having many different chemicals in the same room as a small child. Should we ban all those 'dangerous chemicals' because some parent didn't keep their cleaning supplies out of reach of their children. I don't even let my cat near chemicals and keep them all stored out of reach.

Besides, think about all the folks who use cellphones and computers. Most often people will leave their devices plugged in 24/7 and drain them to death. They would be in danger if they were able to overcharge and overdischarge the cells. Though i prefer for my safety and others that i follow the manufacturers recommendations and experts to keep my li-ion happy and running well.

 

[NoNotAgain]

Another fire caused inside a smaller aircraft was reportedly from a pilots backpack , and it was later found out that the li-on inside his flashlight caused the fire.

Even , the top airline officials have conducted tests to find out the exploding power of 5000 lions , and it had enough power to break open a closed aircraft cabin.They exploded it by just overheating one battery.

But still passengers are allowed to take their laptops and cell-phones on the flight ?????

Please provide the url for the story on the pilots flashlight in a back pack causing a fire. I was involved in aviation for 30 years and have never heard of a single event of a lithium ion flash light fire.

Besides the teething problems that Boeing had with the 787 and lithium batteries, I know of three accidents possibly attributed to lithium batteries. This was a UPS 747-400. The flight manifest didn't list over 10,000 lithium batteries as required by law as hazardous. ( https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/epublication/pages/investigationreport.aspx . go to page 2 and look for 747-400 Dubai ) Page 207 of the accident report shows the manifest.

After the first loss, additional rules were put into place to dictate packaging and number of cells that could be shipped on one aircraft and total lithium volume. One of the two that did not result in loss of the aircraft was caused by handling by the loading crew.

I don't know where you are located, but the airlines themselves don't conduct safety tests on cargo. The FAA does conduct some testing, but for the most part in the US the Department of Transportation is the one that dictates what cargo can be transported and what packaging requirements are required.

Most US common carriers, FedEx, UPS, and the USPS also have their own limitations on shipment of hazardous cargo. They include packaging, volume of cargo and limitations on whether passenger or cargo aircraft are required.

 

[more_vampires]

Put it this way, I have only ever had two battery chemistries vent and/or leak on me.

Lead acid and alkaline. Maybe we should ban them? I've personally seen lead acid venting do thousands upon thousands of dollars in eaten vehicle paint and junked-out wiring. Lead acid overcharge (faulty charging system) has led to two vehicle fires I personally know of. Just think, some child might open the caps and start drinking the electrolyte!

You don't hear the newsmedia talking heads trying to terrify you with deadly lead acid batteries. This is how the newsmedia works. Horror, death, building fires, plane crashes, and some story about a dog wearing a sweater. The dog sweater story would fall under the category of a "weenie story" intended to follow a particularly gruesome story.

The Associated Press is as much of a terror organization as ISIS. LA Riots? You can thank the AP for that. They did it on purpose.

 

[Timothybil]

Yes, the 787 had a couple of battery problems that set off alarms, and I think involved emergency landings. NO PLANES WERE LOST! NO ONE DIED! They had to go back and redesign more safety into the system. How many airplanes are in flight around the world at one time? The vast majority of the newer airliners have batteries made of LiIon cells, just like Tesla and other electric cars do. If a safety issue crops up on any plane a notice is sent to all owners concerning the problem, the probable reason, and a temporary/permanent modification to contain it.
Yes, laptops have overheated, for any number of reasons, some of them involving batteries. You don't think that by now airlines don't have procedures and training in place for their cabin crews on how to handle a overheating/burning laptop? Has there been one incident where an overheating/burning laptop and damaged/destroyed a plane?
Elon Musk of Tesla has just announced that Tesla has designed a battery large enough to run a house. What kind of safety hoops do you think he is going to have to jump through before he gets a UL or NEC approval?
Unless you are living in the jungles of Borneo, you are surrounded by LiIon cells and batteries. Yet few if any have caused any problems. But you know the media - "If it bleeds, it leads!"
Around here, I worry more about tornadoes and ice storms than I do my flashlight cells.

 

[NoNotAgain]

Yes, the 787 had a couple of battery problems that set off alarms, and I think involved emergency landings. NO PLANES WERE LOST! NO ONE DIED! They had to go back and redesign more safety into the system. How many airplanes are in flight around the world at one time? The vast majority of the newer airliners have batteries made of LiIon cells.

Tim, other than the 787, there are no other large commercial airplanes that are using lithium ion batteries.

The 787 battery has had a complete re-design with additional spacing between bell banks and a ventilation system to dump any battery fumes overboard.

Airbus was in the final design phase for the A350 and was scheduled to use lithium cells. After the Boeing issues, Airbus dropped back to plan "B" and is using NiMH batteries.

Airbus is revisiting the lithium battery due to the energy per weight of battery.

 

[reppans]

I think there's a big difference between the lithium cells (primary as well as secondary) we use in flashlights and the Li-ions used in common consumer electronics (laptops, cellphones, digital cameras, etc).

Consumer electronic tend to be fully integrated systems (battery/device/charger) with built-in safety circuitry to maintain the cells within their safe operating parameters - this makes them virtually idiot-proof. Flashlight users, on the other hand, are free to inappropriately mix and match batteries/device/chargers, and are responsible for many of the safety checks and balances - and with spectacular results if you get it wrong. The basic rules that we take for granted are not hard or complicated, but they are FAR from idiot-proof. Furthermore, the education behind lithium battery risks and rules seem obscurely buried on a handful of enthusiast sites frequented by a small fraction of the actual users, and require effort to extract and understand.

While integrated/automated systems can fail, I'd put more money on Darwinism working its magic. That said, I don't think your typically single-user flashlight pressure explosion, followed by a vent-with-flame event would be enough to drop a commercial bird. The Li-ions running the plane, or in the cargo hold?.... I don't see myself checking into aircraft design, or cargo manifests, or not flying, so I guess I'm quite comfortable with my personal knowledge level to run lithiums in my flashlights, and I'll cross my fingers for the rest.

 

[Yamabushi]

Sounds like a panic knee-jerk reaction by management with little knowledge on the topic.

The issue has been building for decades and, while I agree that battery-related incidents on aircraft are not everyday events, they can't be ignored.

The following data is a little dated but the NTSB reported that in the USA there were 82 aviation incidents between 1996 and 2007 involving all battery types. Of those, 14 involved secondary lithium batteries and 13 primary types. The 14 secondary battery incidents included seven with items carried on cargo-only aircraft, six involving checked and carry-on baggage and one with cargo carried on a passenger aircraft.

Due care and proper handling reduce the risk but lets face it, there are a lot of people out there who don't know what they're doing and carrying crap products. Do you want to share an airplane with them?

 

[Timothybil]

Not poking fun to be mean or anything, and not aimed at anyone, but I am reminded of a pre-9/11 story that made the rounds. There was supposedly a guy who carried a bomb in his briefcase every time he flew somewhere. He was finally caught, and asked why. His reply, "What are the odds of two people carrying a bomb on the same plane at the same time?"

 

[jjp888]

Please provide the url for the story on the pilots flashlight in a back pack causing a fire. I was involved in aviation for 30 years and have never heard of a single event of a lithium ion flash light fire.

Besides the teething problems that Boeing had with the 787 and lithium batteries, I know of three accidents possibly attributed to lithium batteries. This was a UPS 747-400. The flight manifest didn't list over 10,000 lithium batteries as required by law as hazardous. ( https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/epublication/pages/investigationreport.aspx . go to page 2 and look for 747-400 Dubai ) Page 207 of the accident report shows the manifest.

After the first loss, additional rules were put into place to dictate packaging and number of cells that could be shipped on one aircraft and total lithium volume. One of the two that did not result in loss of the aircraft was caused by handling by the loading crew.

I don't know where you are located, but the airlines themselves don't conduct safety tests on cargo. The FAA does conduct some testing, but for the most part in the US the Department of Transportation is the one that dictates what cargo can be transported and what packaging requirements are required.

Most US common carriers, FedEx, UPS, and the USPS also have their own limitations on shipment of hazardous cargo. They include packaging, volume of cargo and limitations on whether passenger or cargo aircraft are required.

Yes I was also talking about FAA 's findings.
Here is one amongs the links about li-on accidents on planes reported by FAA-

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/21/the-secret-far-deep-hunt-for-mh370.html

 

[Strintguy]

Are these cautions/dangers the same for IMR chemistries ?


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