Surefire 6p: P60 vs M61WL. Incandescent vs. LED hikes.

Woods Walker

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Here is something I started last winter and just got to finishing now. We all know that LEDs have for the most part replaced incandescent lights for many applications. The reasons are straightforward. More efficient and no filament to break. Everyone likes longer runtimes right! Of course but was something lost? The LED should be far more reliable and it is but then again I had an occasional LED light just die and was irrecoverable. I was always able to get an incandescent light working again by cleaning the contacts or just replacing the bulb. The light emitted from many LEDs often resembles an alien abduction. So blue and sterile. Take me to your leader.....





The reddish haze in the middle of all the ice blue was the light from my wood stove. There must have been 500 lumens worth of cool white LED lanterns running inside my tent. That was from last winter. Ok so what to do? Then again does anything really need to be done at all? I guess the breaking LED issue would need to be addressed. Seems if the electronics are potted in epoxy that adds some impact resistance to the mix. That said a quality LED flashlight rarely break for no reason or at last that's been my experience. Still it has happened to me. There are also warmer LEDs to counter the alien abduction angry blue syndrome but first I did a retro incandescent hike to clear my mind.


Late winter of 2015 and it was an ugly winter at that.


We are going to roll with a Surefire 6p and M@g Solitaire. All incandescent wonders from the past. Extra batteries are going to be needed. On a side note that double walled canteen ended up in a hotel refrigerator some months later and is MIA. I still got that wonderful knife so it wasn't an entirely bad year after all.





It's a go! 03/15!








And it works.....





Some melting in a few areas.








Deeper snow in others.








The brooks were flowing good.





And the batteries ran down. That's just how it rolls. Gosh I just burned through a set of primaries walking around the woods for less than an hour. Dang....... But this issue is simply the nature of the beast and well known by all. Then again how many years have LEDs become predominant? Maybe some kids never actually seen a hotwire flashlight?





Held the Solitaire in my mouth to actually see what I was doing to replace the 2XCR123 batteries. Soon I was back in action!








I was able to make it out on the second set of batteries proving the old ways still had some sway over the dark woods.


So let's fast forward to 12/15. We will be using the same type of host, a Surefire 6p but this time with a Malkoff M61WL. The M61WL installed was tested throughout the year. American made with potted electronics. Simple one mode with little to go wrong though anything made of human hands surely can fail but odds are this combo is about as foolproof as reasonably possible all things considered IMHO.





So it's a go! We will be using the lights on the left but brought them all together for a family reunion. I didn't have a Solitaire in LED so the Leatherman/Fenix E01 with clicky would have to substitute for the 1XAAA backup in keeping with the LED comparison theme.





Same pack as well. I guess the primary differences this time were no snow and I lost a bunch of weight over the year. I am even on the same trail though entering it from another trailhead.











The E01 is the essence of the funky LED alien abduction tint. Comparison to the M61WL is stark thought as stated the E01 (in this case with a clicky) really has the angry blue crazy purple tint down to a science.














Just some sight seeing. To be honest was taking more video than pics.





I did the flash trick to bring out the tint as was done with the Incan P60.





I planned on doing at least 8 miles but the wind picked up so decided to turn back finishing only 7 though did run the last 2.5 miles for da win! Naturally the LEDs never dimmed and the warm glow of the M61WL is rather nice psychologically however light is light. Gear that works, being both reliable and durable are more important considerations for me than other factors. I think the head on that E01 is also potted so odds are it would survive a mishap as well. So was this comparision 10 years too late as for many this issue has already been decided? Maybe yes or maybe no. Just depends on what factors are viewed as important and the needs of the individual. Here is a video of both hikes for those with too much time on their hands or have abandoned cable TV and need entertainment.





Thanks for watching.
 
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Great video, Woods Walker! I appreciate the time it must have taken to make it. Lately my thought process must have mirrored yours because I've been mulling over the purchase of an M61WL as well. I have a Surefire 6P that I upgraded with a Malkoff M61L. But a week ago I was looking around on Amazon and found new 6Ps for $28 plus shipping!:D Shipped it wound up being just under $35, a no brainer, so I ordered another one and it showed up today. Just for the nostalgia factor I thought an M61WL or even WLL would be nice...get that incan look with better reliability and run time.

As fire as 'wires' go? I have to say I'm over incan and happy to be LED. I think we overromanticize incan lights. The truth is they're really not all that neutral. I'll use my fresh-from-the-box Surefire 6P to illustrate. It's really shocking how yellow/warm it really is. To a much higher degree than sunlight. Incan is pleasant but I don't think it's really all that accurate, in absolute terms. To be honest, I think the color of my Malkoff M60NL is about the best I've seen in a hand held light, subjectively even better than the M61 I have based on the Nichia 219B. And certainly better than any of my incans. But what's really striking is how much better the beam quality is with the Malkoff drop ins. The incan modules of both of my 6Ps throw really ragged, egg shaped beams with a lot of imperfections. By way of contrast my LEDs throw uniformly well, especially the ones with Malkoff and Elzetta modules. The M61's give a wonderful, creamy beam with a great ratio of spot to spill. Subjectively they're much more useful than the incan module of my Surefires.

I also have had some bad experiences with incan bulbs. I had the Xenon bulb in my Browning/Pelican light burn out/fail on me about 1,000 miles up into Canada once at the most remote fishing lodge I've ever been to. It happened very late in the evening on a cloudy, moonless night...and to make matters worse, I was just leaving the outhouse well away from camp!:rolleyes: I swear I could feel the black bears breathing down my neck every step of the way back to camp!:crackup: There was no way to get the light going again and I didn't even have a spare for the 'exotic' bulb- had to special order it when I got back to the States. And of course it cost 1/2 as much as the light did ($15 in 1995 money for a light that cost $35).

IMOHO we're in the Golden Age of flashlights! Oh, to be sure it will continue to get better, and in 20 years kids will marvel that we got by on our primative LEDs that put out a mere 1,000 lumens with their paltry few hours of runtime!:laughing: But on every level the lights I have today crush everything I've ever owned in the past. And no offense to any fans but Mag-lite has to be the worst! I had at least four big Mags and every one crapped out on me except the 3-Cell D light. IIRC the larger ones pushed too much voltage for the bulb. For whatever reason none of mine worked well but the 3 cell. And I think the Mini and Solitaire are really crappy. Ugly beam pattern, low output and not very good run time. My Streamlight MicroStream crushes them all. Certainly my Elzetta Bravo with AVS head is better than anything I ever had 'back in the day'.

Very good thread! I'm still trying to decide between turning my new 6P into a battery vampire and going for max output. I'm curious to try an M61W/WL but I have to say the N's are so good looking that maybe I'll go that route.
 

yellow

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as long as You are not going "6 P bored for 18650" + led insert,
You have not finished Your "hike"
;)

ready made battery is as stone age, as is (low power) hotwire
:poof:
 

Woods Walker

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as long as You are not going "6 P bored for 18650" + led insert,
You have not finished Your "hike"
;)

ready made battery is as stone age, as is (low power) hotwire
:poof:

I roll with a 16650 and Malkoff often. The 2500 mAh Keeppower runs so long I never found a reason to bored out one.
 

Woods Walker

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found new 6Ps for $28 plus shipping!:D

Yea they seem to be around cheap these days. I also got an extra for under 30 bucks. To be honest my prefered is the M61NL but enjoy them all. It does seem like things have stagnated a bit in terms of LED technology over the past few years but no expert on them. The last really impressive jump IMHO was the XR-E.
 

Grijon

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Excellent story with pics, Woods Walker - thank you!

Great response by Rob Babcock, I agree that we're in a wonderful time for flashlights, ha ha!

I keep two Surefire P60s on hand, but when I use them I'm always disappointed with the battery life (or lack thereof). The Malkoff M61WLL gives me everything I want, except the knowledge that there's a hotwire doing the work.
 

scout24

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I'll give you efficiency and that tint is visually close. I find the Malkoff L's, or multiple L's more of a close range light. I still think the P60 beam has plenty of reach, and good "at your feet" spill. Inside of 25 yards, the floody Malkoff takes it. Unfamiliar areas in the dark, I'll take the P60. Or my Hound Dog... :nana: I'm a huge Malkoff fan, but different tools for different tasks. I think the Incan P60 still holds it's own.
 

Woods Walker

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I'll give you efficiency and that tint is visually close. I find the Malkoff L's, or multiple L's more of a close range light. I still think the P60 beam has plenty of reach, and good "at your feet" spill. Inside of 25 yards, the floody Malkoff takes it. Unfamiliar areas in the dark, I'll take the P60. Or my Hound Dog... :nana: I'm a huge Malkoff fan, but different tools for different tasks. I think the Incan P60 still holds it's own.

The Incan P60 does have nice throw but the floodier beam of the Malkoff makes for easier walking IMHO. Actually my M61WL has about the same practical throw as the P60 but needs twice the lumens to do it. On a side note anyone ever try to run a 16650 with a P60? I wonder what the tint would look like in the woods at those voltage levels?
 

Grijon

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...but different tools for different tasks. I think the Incan P60 still holds it's own.

Absolutely, on both points! I should have clarified that I meant that when I want to run an incan, the M61WLL does everything for me except let me know that I'm using an *incan*, ha ha ha. I actually intend to run a P60 the next time I get to take a truly dark walk. Regarding different tools...it's my intention to end up with every different non-cool-white Malkoff product I can get my hands on.

On a side note anyone ever try to run a 16650 with a P60? I wonder what the tint would look like in the woods at those voltage levels?

I have the means to to do this, maybe tonight (no pictures, though, sorry).
 

Woods Walker

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Absolutely, on both points! I should have clarified that I meant that when I want to run an incan, the M61WLL does everything for me except let me know that I'm using an *incan*, ha ha ha. I actually intend to run a P60 the next time I get to take a truly dark walk. Regarding different tools...it's my intention to end up with every different non-cool-white Malkoff product I can get my hands on.



I have the means to to do this, maybe tonight (no pictures, though, sorry).

I can as well. Are there any issues with running a 18650 or 16650. I think the p60 would run down cells without protection too low if allowed but I don't run naked.
 

bykfixer

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I bought a WLL for my initial 6P. I was looking to mimic the P60 in output for places where the stars are so bright you pull your hat brim down to shade your eyes when looking up.

I bought a WL for another 6P for cloudy nights in those far away from the city areas.

I bought an NL for a G2 for use in city conditions where light pollution is a factor on partially lit streets.

I bought an MD2 hi/lo for max brightness and available battery life.
Soon after I bought another one to stash.

I bought another NL for a yellow G2. It's my favorite in terms of the combination of brightness, tint and battery life in various circumstances.
It seems to punch a better hole through darkness yet not so bright it flashes back at you in tight surroundings and 5hr regulated battery life will get you through a bad night if you need a light for several hours.
Each light described above are wrapped in a marked Malkoff bubble bag with a fresh pair of battery stations, ready to go at a moments notice. Only the Malkoff lights have clicky switches.
I treat them like a kitchen fire extinguisher...use only when necessary knowing they'll work.

They come out to play at times or for showing off. Hence the new batteries in the bag to replace used when they deplete.

My Streamlights are daily users regarding Tac lights along with an Alpha. (I have a 2nd Alpha in the same scenario as those Sure Fire lights, packed and ready along with a pair of 12 packs of batteries also in a Malkoff bubble bag).

Each Malkoff item arrives in a resealable bubble bag of one size or another.

Still love my incans but rarely use them.
 
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cp2315

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The Incan P60 does have nice throw but the floodier beam of the Malkoff makes for easier walking IMHO. Actually my M61WL has about the same practical throw as the P60 but needs twice the lumens to do it. On a side note anyone ever try to run a 16650 with a P60? I wonder what the tint would look like in the woods at those voltage levels?

First of all, I love your posts of night hiking in snow. Thanks for sharing with us.

I have tried to use 16650/18650 with incan surefire G2. Tried only with a 6V bulb. It is dim comparing to its full power but tint is not noticeably different. My favorite incan is G2 with a 9V bulb powered by 2x16340. It is quite bright and does throw very well. The tint is pretty.
 
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Yea they seem to be around cheap these days. I also got an extra for under 30 bucks. To be honest my prefered is the M61NL but enjoy them all. It does seem like things have stagnated a bit in terms of LED technology over the past few years but no expert on them. The last really impressive jump IMHO was the XR-E.

Maybe stagnated, maybe plateaued is a better word. At the moment the improvements from gen to gen seem more evolutionary than revolutionary. At the risk of coming across as a stick in the mud I'd say this is fine with me. My Elzetta lights are unbelievable, as are my Malkoff drop ins and the Malkoff head on my Surefire E1b. Lights of the future will undoubtedly raise the bar but honestly if they never got much better I'd be happy with the current tech for a long time. I'm not an expert either but I have some electronics training as part of my work towards my IT and business degrees. I think batteries are the limiting factor right now more than emitters. Again, my knowledge is that of a somewhat knowledgeable layman with a smidgen of training but there might not be any radical leaps in lumens or candelas nor huge jumps in efficiency to be had wiht LEDs. Granted they'll get incrementally better but I think better power cells will be needed to see any breathtaking increases in performance.
I'm aware that this could sound pretty hilarious if read back to me five years from now.:ohgeez::eek:
 

scout24

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I find the increased spill distracting at times when looking past 10 yards or so in the brush or say an overgrown field. While walking at night down dirt/gravel roads, or around town, the Malkoff beam is ideal with it's brighter spill... Not to veer off topic too fat, but Fivemega recently posted in an incan thread about the virtues of the P61 on an 18650 or larger IMR cell. The P60 is somewhat dim and yellow on a 16650, but it does make usable light.
The Incan P60 does have nice throw but the floodier beam of the Malkoff makes for easier walking IMHO. Actually my M61WL has about the same practical throw as the P60 but needs twice the lumens to do it. On a side note anyone ever try to run a 16650 with a P60? I wonder what the tint would look like in the woods at those voltage levels?
 
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etc

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I love the tint of most Malkoffs, even the ones that are not Neutral or Warm. I could never live with the tint of incan 6P. Out of a dozen or so Malkoffs, I only had a truly bad one angry light blue shade, the rest are fine.

P60 is sort of OK for 15 minutes and as the batteries are quickly depleted, it turns even uglier and even dimmer. P90 is the same way. Runtime is poor, spill is poor, lumens are low and the tint is not that good at all. Let them stay in the 1990's where they belong. They were really cool (pun intended) back then versus the competition.
Today, they are not even any kind of reference standard to be used.

Malkoff M61W sort of looks interesting, I would not mind having one. But you do reduce the lumens just a little.

Thanks for the gazillion pics. Looks interesting.

I love my Hound Dog tint. I also had a stunning M60 back int he day with a delightful tint. Luxeon lottery maybe.
 

cp2315

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Here is a comparison of XPG2 7C4 (left), 6V surefire xenon powered by one 18650, and 9V surefire xenon with 2x16340. So I lied, the tint difference is noticeable if you compare them side by side.
23619695180_ca5ba408ff_c.jpg
[/URL]image by sesgum, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
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peter yetman

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Here is a comparison of XPG2 7C4 (left), 6V surefire xenon powered by one 18650, and 9V surefire xenon with 2x16340. So I lied, the tint difference is noticeable if you compare them side by side.
23619695180_ca5ba408ff_c.jpg
[/URL]image by sesgum, on Flickr[/IMG]
Amazing, if you hadn't told me I'd have said P90 on left and xpg2 on right, just from the beam profile.
How wrong can I be?
P
 
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