1" body/head 18650/123A do-everything light

[redvalkyrie]

My answer is always Malkoff. However, the Fenix TK16 is one hell of a light. Except for having a XPL-Hi I think it checks all of your boxes. Momentary switch. Separate switch on tailcap above momentary to change modes. 1000 lumens. 18650. Mode memory. I even think it has instant access to full high output.

I had one and loved it. Then came my Malkoff illness. Have you considered a Malkoff MD3 with a M91? It's three CR123s but you can also use two 18500s. Mine with a hi/lo ring and M91W is my most used light.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

What he said.

Fenix PD35TAC

Length: 5.5″ (139mm)
Width: 1″ (24mm)
Operates on two CR123A batteries or a single 18650

Yes... but far under the candlepower standards. A year or two ago, this light would have been the best I could hope for -- decent switch, adequate UI, best performance I could possibly hope for given it's an XML2, good quality. Once they update to XPL HI, and boost that 11kcd-ish, it will hit all the checkboxes

 

[Joe Talmadge]

My answer is always Malkoff. However, the Fenix TK16 is one hell of a light. Except for having a XPL-Hi I think it checks all of your boxes. Momentary switch. Separate switch on tailcap above momentary to change modes. 1000 lumens. 18650. Mode memory. I even think it has instant access to full high output.

Thanks, rv... Agree... the TK16 is one of a number of great options in lights with big 35mm heads (although still stuck at 14kcd with an XML2...). But both the overall size (1" or less all the way through) and candlepower are top-priority requirements. 1" is the limit of my tolerance for many situations for EDC, and I need to have the light on me

I had one and loved it. Then came my Malkoff illness. Have you considered a Malkoff MD3 with a M91? It's three CR123s but you can also use two 18500s. Mine with a hi/lo ring and M91W is my most used light.

I hadn't considered it ... again, for myself, this is an everyday do-everything light, and I won't carry a light this long. I am as impressed with you guys with my Malkoff (only a drop-in, but it kicks butt) and I love the hi/lo ring option. These lights just aren't quite designed for what I'm looking for (or, maybe a better way to say it: they're designed for someone who is willing to EDC a bigger light than I'm willing to)

 

[Loomun]

Yes... but far under the candlepower standards. A year or two ago, this light would have been the best I could hope for -- decent switch, adequate UI, best performance I could possibly hope for given it's an XML2, good quality. Once they update to XPL HI, and boost that 11kcd-ish, it will hit all the checkboxes

How many more Lumens with the XPL HI ? 100 ? I`m just guessing.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

How many more Lumens with the XPL HI ? 100 ? I`m just guessing.

From what I've seen, XPL HI lumens don't seem to be much different than those old XML2s. I have an old Thrunite TN12 (I think it is), a 1" 18650 XML2 light that put out 1000 lumens, a few years ago, which also seems to be in the general range of the XPL HI 1" 18650 lights, 800-1000 lumens. Besides, a 10% increase (or decrease, for that matter) in lumens is not really noticeable, so any marginal difference doesn't seem important to me.

What I"m after here is the increase in candlepower. That old TN12 was somewhere around 10kcd if I remember right. Meanwhile, Nitecore's P12GT is hitting 25kcd -- so, roughly double the candlepower. That's what the XPL HI brings to the table versus those older LEDs, and that I don't want to sacrifice. Even the noticeably smaller Eageltac DX30LC2 is getting 20kcd -- incredibly noticeable difference in beam intensity and throw, versus these XML2 lights, and that's what I"m not willing to give up.

 

[Loomun]

From what I've seen, XPL HI lumens don't seem to be much different than those old XML2s. I have an old Thrunite TN12 (I think it is), a 1" 18650 XML2 light that put out 1000 lumens, a few years ago, which also seems to be in the general range of the XPL HI 1" 18650 lights, 800-1000 lumens. Besides, a 10% increase (or decrease, for that matter) in lumens is not really noticeable, so any marginal difference doesn't seem important to me.

What I"m after here is the increase in candlepower. That old TN12 was somewhere around 10kcd if I remember right. Meanwhile, Nitecore's P12GT is hitting 25kcd -- so, roughly double the candlepower. That's what the XPL HI brings to the table versus those older LEDs, and that I don't want to sacrifice. Even the noticeably smaller Eageltac DX30LC2 is getting 20kcd -- incredibly noticeable difference in beam intensity and throw, versus these XML2 lights, and that's what I"m not willing to give up.

Gotcha. :thumbsup:

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Quick update: I emailed Eagletac to lay out my case for a rear switch that is suitable for a defensive use-case, they emailed me back promptly, promising to talk to their switch manufacturer to see what can be done. Will keep you all updated.

I've also emailed Klarus a month ago, pointing out that the XT2C XPL-HI is only reaching the candela levels that all other manufacturers can get with an XML2 in this size range. They told me that have good things coming.

I appreciate the response from customer service from both companies, and I'm hoping one or the other nails it. I haven't contacted Nitecore... I have a feeling that the switch delay is intrinsic to the design or engineering, and a bigger matter to fix than merely redesigning a reflector or switch

I've also not contacted Fenix or Olight... I figure XPL-HI offerings are just a matter of time

Going to go peruse Vinh's offerings...

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I'll whip up a master list of what we have so far, but wanted to point out the ThruNite TN12 2016 ... It seems to hit all the requirements, except it's still using an XPL so limited to 13kcd. They update to a HI, with proper focusing, and they hit it

Also, for me this again shines a light on what an atrocious job Klarus did with their XPL HI XT2C... their competitors easily get 20kcd-ish (and sometimes quite a bit more than that) with an XPL HI with a light this size. Thrunite is getting essentially the same candela with a regular domed XPL as Klarus gets with a HI...

 

[lampeDépêche]

Here's an option that might work?

Get one of Vinh's SL2's. It's the right diameter, takes an 18650, and in one configuration or another you will certainly be able to get the performance specs you want (i.e. minimum 700 lumens & 20kcd).

With Vinh's driver Vn2, you can program it so it is a single-mode, on-off light. So you have a single-mode rear clicky. It's a reverse, but I *think* it may allow for momentary on?

Then if you have the power-outage and need long-running low-level, you can program to some other mode-pattern, e.g. the 1%-30%-100% option, which will give you access to a long-lasting low (though in that mode, you don't have the tactical feature that you want, where it puts out max on every click of the switch).

Downsides:
1) doesn't give you *both* the tactical operation *and* the low-low, without reprogramming. I don't mind reprogramming, but some do.
2) you can use a single CR123 with a spacer, but not 2 cells at once. Okay for emergency use in medium output, won't support high output.
3) I don't remember whether the clicky will give you momentary on or not. I've got one more flight to get home, and then I'll check.

Off-topic--Joe, I have followed your thoughts over the years on knife-forums, and always admired your good sense and level head.

 

[staticx57]

Here's an option that might work?

Get one of Vinh's SL2's. It's the right diameter, takes an 18650, and in one configuration or another you will certainly be able to get the performance specs you want (i.e. minimum 700 lumens & 20kcd).

With Vinh's driver Vn2, you can program it so it is a single-mode, on-off light. So you have a single-mode rear clicky. It's a reverse, but I *think* it may allow for momentary on?

Then if you have the power-outage and need long-running low-level, you can program to some other mode-pattern, e.g. the 1%-30%-100% option, which will give you access to a long-lasting low (though in that mode, you don't have the tactical feature that you want, where it puts out max on every click of the switch).

Downsides:
1) doesn't give you *both* the tactical operation *and* the low-low, without reprogramming. I don't mind reprogramming, but some do.
2) you can use a single CR123 with a spacer, but not 2 cells at once. Okay for emergency use in medium output, won't support high output.
3) I don't remember whether the clicky will give you momentary on or not. I've got one more flight to get home, and then I'll check.

Off-topic--Joe, I have followed your thoughts over the years on knife-forums, and always admired your good sense and level head.

If you can solder two wires you can build an SL2 for 1/3 cost.

 

[lampeDépêche]

If you can solder two wires you can build an SL2 for 1/3 cost.

But with what driver? What modes?


Sure, you could get a direct-drive, but then no long-running low levels.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Thanks Lampe! The problem with that is, while I require the light be instantly available at any time as a tactical light, I can sometimes go a whole day (or week, or year, or lifetime ) without getting into a defensive situation, and so the light must simultaneously be an awesome EDC utility light. So reprogramming it from one mode to another just doesn't work. And when you think about it, a power outage due to an earthquake is when you might most want to be able to go from long-running to tactical mode instantly, depending on where you are. And I might want to use the light in low or medium, when going about my day

The three XPL HI lights -- with the Klarus being a real standout -- all have UIs that enable this, so it's not asking too terribly much. And some of the lights I"ve found that don't have XPL His, also have acceptable UIs for this, they'd just need to update the LED and focus it properly

 

[staticx57]

But with what driver? What modes?


Sure, you could get a direct-drive, but then no long-running low levels.

Mountain Electronics FET driver with guppydrv

This is the same driver as drivervn2 just without it saying v54 on it

 

[lampeDépêche]

.... So reprogramming it from one mode to another just doesn't work....

Totally understand. It's not the compromise that I have made, either (right now, I'm trying to see if I can live with EDC'ing the new SC600 HI, but the head *is* a bit bulky, and of course the UI is highly non-tactical).

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

[lampeDépêche]

Mountain Electronics FET driver with guppydrv

This is the same driver as drivervn2 just without it saying v54 on it

That's good to know! Thanks for the info!

 

[BriteLite2]

I myself would have serious doubts about being able to manipulate a clicky switch under the high stress of a defensive situations. That's why LE and such tend to go with a simple tactical press for on non-clicky switch like the Z41. If you think you are gonna be able to only slightly depress a clicky for momentary when someone is trying to hurt or kill you, you are fooling yourself .

also clicky switches can and do fail. for a "tactical " light you really want a momentary on press/twist for constant on setup

could you really rely on a clicky switch that is used for lets say 6-10 years as an EDC then after 10 years and a few thousand clicks you need the light tactically 100% reliable .

I would rather give up some output and go with a Malkoff or Elzetta . or maybe an HDS light programmed to as close as you can to what you want?

if having the light be tactically 100% reliable is one of three most important factors then you will need to either compromise or rethink what you are looking for. I wouldn't truat anything short of a SF/Malkoff/elzetta switch

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Britelite, I think that's a perfectly reasonable, researched position you have. I don't agree with some of it -- e.g., I can tell you definitively, LE doesn't tend to go with momentary-only switches, at least among those I know and have trained with. I totally understand the reasoning behind it, as laid out so well by Surefire and others, but I also know that Surefire themselves have clicky switch lights, and IME clickies are overwhelmingly the choice in handheld lights even among that crowd...

For myself, I can say a few things. First, "defensive" use for a civilian doesn't always imply with a firearm, and I know for a fact, through experience, that I can handle a light under those conditions without mashing it to click (at least on longer-throw switches). I'm in CA so this is by far the most likely scenario regardless, I can't carry. Even with a firearm (e.g., in my home), under certain conditions I'm pretty confident, but obviously, no one knows how they'll react in condition black, for real. But if I've used proper discipline up until that point -- which I can do -- maybe that's sufficient.

For the one do-everything light I have on me all the time, I absolutely want a clickie... I realize its limitations and still think it's the better solution, if the switch is designed well. None of which is to say that I don't think you haven't figured out the best solution for you! My dedicated nightstand light is more along the lines of what you're describing, but it's got only one job. This one has to be useful enough at all jobs, that I'll carry it with me

 

[camelight]

Look at the zebralight sc600 mk iii hi
It's head might be 30mm but it's length is only 96mm!!
It's running on one 18650 (no 2 cr123) the hi version is 1150lm and can go down even to 0.01lm that lasting months
It has thermal step down but you also can program the sensor
I don't know what is the cd(the beam intensity)
So look at some reviews if you are interested
It's head a little bigger from what you asked but it very short 18650 flashlight

 

[Joe Talmadge]

camelight: it's funny that I don't own a zebralight yet -- ZL fans are so dedicated, I feel like I should have at least one...

The size of the head knocks it out of the running -- thickness is worse than length for pocket carry, IMO -- but do admire the form factor. The more important problem is the UI ... all you have to do is see that it has just one switch, and you know it's out of the running. No momentary, single switch to change modes, all of these things, which can make it so awesome for EDC/utility use, make it absolutely unacceptable for the defense use case that is a hard requirement. But, definitely admire that light!

 

[Joe Talmadge]

A quick update on Klarus: I picked up the new XT1C, and was surprised to find that the main switch no longer operates as a momentary -- it's clicky-only, to high. Which perhaps means the horribly focused XPL HI isn't the only bizarre design decision Klarus is making these days. Wonder if this is also the case with the newest XT2C, in which case, it gets crossed off the list