123 Battery Shoot Out

[pilou]

While most lights run in the 0.5 - 1.5 amp range, there are some that operate in the 2.5 amp range. The 2.0 amp testing is for those people.

2.5 amps? oo: I stand corrected if that is the case. But I am having a hard time imagining a cell rated at 1.5 amp being driven continuously at 2.5 amps without damage.

Is that 2.5 amp draw for each battery or is that the total draw of the light? I just did a little bit of research and it seems like the M6 has two sets of three batteries in arranged parallel. So if it is the light that is drawing 2.5 amps, then each battery is operating at 1.25 amp.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Pilou,

The M6 is a 9 volt system that runs at 5.0 amps with the high output lamp assembly. It runs two parallel sets of three cells in series for a total of six cells total. Run time is about 18 - 20 minutes.

Tom

 

[pilou]

5 amps in the palm of your hand . Six 123As drained in 20 minutes. That thing must get really hot very quickly. I guess users better make sure every battery they put in that beast is near 100% capacity and of good quality. This redefines "pushing the envelope" :laughing: Battery manufacturers must cringe when they hear about the Surefire M6 :lolsign:. Thanks for the info.

 

[paulr]

5 amps in the palm of your hand . Six 123As drained in 20 minutes. That thing must get really hot very quickly. I guess users better make sure every battery they put in that beast is near 100% capacity and of good quality. This redefines "pushing the envelope" :laughing: Battery manufacturers must cringe when they hear about the Surefire M6 :lolsign:. Thanks for the info.

The Surefire "Beast" is a HID light that uses TWENTY cr123a's, not six, though they last longer than 20 minutes. I just wanted to make sure you knew that. I think the later versions may use fewer cells .

Pics are here: http://www.obaq.tv/cpf/?page=SureFire_Beast

 

[pilou]

The Surefire "Beast" is a HID light that uses TWENTY cr123a's, not six, though they last longer than 20 minutes. I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

I certainly didn't! That's crazy. Its price is even crazier $4,800!!! Do you know how the batteries are arranged in terms of parallel/series setup?

PS: I loved the superimposed output curves of the Beast, the M6, and the U2 :lolsign:

 

[soffiler]

I certainly didn't! That's crazy. Its price is even crazier $4,800!!! Do you know how the batteries are arranged in terms of parallel/series setup?

Hi pilou:

Based on the image of the battery arrangement here:

http://www.obaq.tv/cpf/images/Beast_Manual_2.jpg

And based on the fact that it's rated at "12V" according to the literature, I would put those details together and conclude the cells are grouped four parallel, five series. A CR123A under load has a voltage around 2.4-2.5V and noting that 5x2.4=12.0V so the math works.

The design, as I understand, was targetted directly at the military. It appears they had another of those "$600 hammers" or "$2000 toilet seats" with their $4800 flashlight!!

 

[MoonRise]

Re: The 2-amp test conditions probably never met in real life

But how many lights actually operate in the 2-amp test mode? Think of it this way: how many single cell lights do you know that drain a 123 battery in about 20-25 minutes? I don't know of any. That would be awfully inefficient anyway. That's what multi-cells are for, to operate powerful lights more efficiently at higher voltages.

Take simple Mag 2-C, add a Carley 1499 bulb, power it with 3x123 cells, and the curent draw is 1.8 A. And 1.8 A is a lot closer to 2A than 1A.

More than one Surefire HOLA system will drain the cells in 20-25 minutes. It doesn't matter if it's a 2-cell, 3-cell, 4-cell, or more light, the incan HOLA will drain the cells in 20-25 minutes.

 

[pilou]

I have clearly been shown that there are some mods and some superHID lights that actually push these 123 cells well beyond their official ratings. But would it still be fair to say that for most lights, the current draw will be somewhere roughly between say 0.2 and1.3 amps?

 

[soffiler]

I have clearly been shown that there are some mods and some superHID lights that actually push these 123 cells well beyond their official ratings. But would it still be fair to say that for most lights, the current draw will be somewhere roughly between say 0.2 and1.3 amps?

Since (I believe) a lot of people think in terms of runtime rather than current draw, let me just add that your numbers (0.2 - 1.3 amps) equate to roughly one to seven hours of runtime.

I don't have a whole lot of experience here, but my gut feeling is that the majority of CR123A-powered flashlights will fall closer to the low end of that runtime scale i.e. the higher-current-draw end of the scale.

 

[pilou]

I've ordered from Botach (note spelling) several times and have zero complaints.

I just did my usual minimal research before buying from a new retailer to find out Botach has a truly horrendous track record. A last 6-months rating of 0.75 out of 10 from retailersratings.com. A big fat F from the Southern Cal BBB, on a scale that goes like this: AAA, AA, A, BBB, BB, ...

I guess the prices are just too good not too come with a big catch

It sounds like a nightmarish business

 

[soffiler]

I just did my usual minimal research before buying from a new retailer to find out Botach has a truly horrendous track record. A last 6-months rating of 0.75 out of 10 from retailersratings.com. A big fat F from the Southern Cal BBB, on a scale that goes like this: AAA, AA, A, BBB, BB, ...

I guess the prices are just too good not too come with a big catch

It sounds like a nightmarish business

That makes me go "hmmmmm..."

I've ordered from them a total of three times now, over a period of um probably 6 months, and I have zero cause for complaint. I have received exactly what I ordered in a timely fashion each of the three times. I am not familar with retailersratings.com, but you've got my attention with the BBB.

Now I gotta do some homework...

(EDIT)

OK, I located resellerratings.com (note "retailersratings.com" does not exist) and I see the horrendous track record of Botach Tactical. It sounds to me like a tiny operation, probably a one-man-show (or make that one-woman-show since many people seem to reach a female when the finally reach a human being). Most likely overworked and underpaid, and maybe (hey I don't know the person) not of stellar IQ to begin with. None of this is meant to be an excuse; it's just the image I get after reading some of the reviews. Good luck asking for a "supervisor" when you can't get anywhere with your complaint... that person on the other end of the phone is probably the Cheif Cook and Bottle Washer.

 

[pilou]

I did some more reading and it seems like there are some repeat customers with no problems while other have lots of issues. I suppose "bad" seldom means every transaction goes bad. Perhaps only 5% or less of them go bad, but that is usually enough to build up a terrible track record. I suspect one of the reasons they run into trouble is that they just sell way too many things for what seems like a fairly small business. They probably don't have in stock many of things they list but the temptation is probably too big to let the customer waiting or ship him something else.

 

[Martini]

Botach's bad rep is well-known in the knife world, as there are many unsatisfied customers out there. I was lucky. The two times I dealt with them, there were no problems. If anyone is considering doing business with them, I would encourage them to look at their report from the L.A. BBB. IIRC, the number of unanswered complaints was quite a bit higher just a few months ago. A bunch of them must be just outside the standard reporting period now.

$1 a piece for Sanyos would, however, be great. Has anyone found similar pricing elsewhere?

 

[soffiler]

A buck apiece for Sanyo's is pretty good when they are made in China, which my first batch were. They were all well-matched at 100% on ZTS, and on a full-discharge test on WMR equipment they proved to have about 85% of the capacity of a set of Surefires I had tested previously.

My next order of Sanyo's from Botach... lo and behold, they are not Chinese, they are made in Japan! Still a buck each. And these tested nearly identical to the Surefires.

My next order... still Japanese Sanyo's but now, Botach is claiming that if they run out of Sanyo they will substitute US-made Energizer e2. Still a buck.

No complaints here, yet, but I'd like to thank you guys for opening my eyes to their less than stellar customer service.

 

[FiftyCalAl]

Are the US made e2 Energizers better than the original testing samples, or are they similar/same, thus being on the low end of the "shoot out"? I love the Sanyo (Japan), but have had mixed results with Surefires.

 

[soffiler]

Are the US made e2 Energizers better than the original testing samples, or are they similar/same, thus being on the low end of the "shoot out"? I love the Sanyo (Japan), but have had mixed results with Surefires.

I have done partial (external only) disassembly of Duracell, Surefire, and Energizer e2 cells. They are literally identical under the wrapper. This involves a bit of forensic work - looking at toolmarks on the stamped parts under magnification, that sort of thing. The evidence that all three of these brands are coming from the same factory is extremely strong in my mind. I would generally expect that performance of each brand would be similar, assuming (big assumption) the chemistry used is the same. A while ago, I learned (probably from somewhere on CPF, not sure) that Panasonic is the only manufacturer with CR123A plants in the USA, so you are left to take a wild guess where all of the above-named cells must be coming from...

 

[nuggett]

After playing with various brands, I have settled on The new titaniums from Amondotech for use in my SF M6 and A2, excellent high current service.
Indistinguishable from the SF batts.

 

[soffiler]

After playing with various brands, I have settled on The new titaniums from Amondotech for use in my SF M6 and A2, excellent high current service.
Indistinguishable from the SF batts.

Hi, nuggett:

Just wondering, indistinguishable how? Physical construction? Measured performance? Measured how?

 

[nuggett]

completely subjective, Steve

 

[soffiler]

completely subjective, Steve

Ah-ha, OK then.

As far as I know, Titaniums are made in China (and I've got a reminder to get myself some Titaniums for testing). SF are made in USA. Thus far, I've not seen a Chinese cell match a USA cell in performance, and I've got a quart-size ziplock baggie full of discharge-tested, dead CR123A's.