Advice on Outdoor Ice Arena Lighting

[bootsnixon]

Hi guys. My neighborhood has an outdoor hockey rink that we are wanting to improve the lighting on. I have been tasked with finding better lights and not knowing much on the subject I was pleased to have stumbled on to this site while trying to do some research. It seems there are some pretty smart folk on here.
I will try to give you a quick rundown on the application and perhaps you could shed some light on the subject! LOL

The rink is approx. 100' x 50'. It has six poles, three on each side for lighting. They are approx. 18' high and we are currently using one 200w incand. bulb on each pole. The bulbs are in simple open dished overhead housings. They are 120v powered on a timer that runs about 5 hours a night. The overall lighting is just barely adequate. Sorry, I have no pictures to show you.

I went to a local electrical supply store and was given a recommendation of using Cooper lighting Crosstour 30w LED floodlighting.
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/lighting/products/floodlighting/_807703.html

I am impressed with the low power draw, long bulb life, cold temp start-up and compact size. I am concerned that they will not be significantly brighter than what we have though and that is the highest wattage led Cooper makes.

So I went online looking for brighter led floodlights and found lots of Chinese 100w led floodlights like this:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/4Pcs...ht-IP65outdoor-LED-street-Lamp/579805598.html

This seems ideal to me as it would lower our energy usage, work in cold weather, last a long time and most importantly give us better lighting. From searching this forum there seems to be some concerns about these Chinese floodlights though.

Is this a good/bad idea? What should I look for in a good floodlight? Any other ideas? Any advice would be much appreciated by a rookie lighting guy!
Bootsnixon
p.s. thanks to this forum, I now want a better flashlight!

 

[blasterman]

Stick with Metal Halide floods in the 250-400watt range. That's *at least* a 4x increase in light intensity in my book over 200w incans, and that's just with 250watt halide. Not to mention the color will be more neutral. You should have no problem finding outdoor rated ones for less than $200.

 

[bootsnixon]

Thanks for the advice Blasterman. What can you expect for bulb life on metal halides? Are they good in cold weather? We are in Red Deer, Alberta so we get pretty cold but I would imagine only need to light down to -20c. That brings to mind another question. Being as they are on a timer, will the lights lifespan be shortened trying to turn on in -40c temperature? We generally get that a few times each winter.
Thanks,
bootsnixon

 

[Optical Inferno]

Thanks for the advice Blasterman. What can you expect for bulb life on metal halides? Are they good in cold weather? We are in Red Deer, Alberta so we get pretty cold but I would imagine only need to light down to -20c. That brings to mind another question. Being as they are on a timer, will the lights lifespan be shortened trying to turn on in -40c temperature? We generally get that a few times each winter.
Thanks,
bootsnixon

Here in the Niagara Region we have a few outdoor rinks like yours too. We use the exact lights that blasterman recommended and they seem to work great. We get the occasional night where it has dropped to about -30C, normally about -10C - -20C in the winter here though, and they seem to work well. I'm not sure about lifetime though, as I haven't played at one of these rinks in a while.

On another note...leave it to leave it two Canadians to somehow make a link between lighting and hockey...Love it.

 

[SemiMan]

Make it 3!

Go with a reputable company that specifies their ballast to at least -30 and preferably -40c.

Bulb will be good for 12,000 hours at least with barely perceptible light drop. At 180 days a year, that is 12 years without a bulb change.

Don't just buy any light though. 18 feet is quite low especially only from the sides. You need a light with a nice wide spread. RAB comes to mind as a reputable company. I know the guys who do the big stuff for sports, but not sure about the smaller stuff.


Semiman

 

[blasterman]

I live in Michigan, which is hardly a tropical climate, but 0-F or lower is not very common except for maybe a couple days in Feb. Lake Mi tends to buffer cold fronts coming out of Canada and the Northern Plains....we get snow squalls instead. Nobody here buys specialty halide ballasts, but for more northern climates I know that cold rating is preferred.

As I recall some probe starts have an issue at like -20F and lower. I'm sure a local home improvement store with a experienced old timer manning the lighting aisle will be happy to show you which halide fixtures aren't bothered by the cold.

The bulbs may take an extra couple of minutes to hit maximum out-put when it's super cold, but that's it. Virtually all out-side stadiums now use halide.I'm taking a stab that three of those 100watt LED fixtures would be required to come close to matching the out-put of a single 250watt halide fixture.

 

[deadrx7conv]

Watt for watt, LED and metal halide are similar in the lighting areas that I've seen. I haven't seen one trump the other at the same watt rating. Not sure why some members here are trying to compare 100w LED's to 250w metal halides. Failure comparison!

200w incan is pretty pathetic and I can understand that "barely adequate lighting" 5000 sq' area with 1200w of incan. What bulb type/socket size or PN is currently being used? You might not knowingly have the correct specs, or may just be able to simply change the bulb wattage/type, or clean/improve the light's housing reflective ability....

Your local supply store's 30w LED light's output would be similar to the 200w incan, and usually a bit more directional depending on reflector/lens... I would consider 2-6 of those INCLUSIVE to your 6x200w incans. Otherwise, you'll need 12-18 of those 30w fixtures which is expensive. I find that local stores and contractors will purposely undersize the 'new technology' of LED to make them look even more pathetic. Ol' timers don't always want to adapt to new tech, and create that self-fulfilling instant failure. 30w LED recommendation = failure from your local store.

If sourced locally(halide or LED), make sure you understand the warrant from the store, from the product brand, and from your installer. Your local store, or contractrician should be straightforward concerning repair or replacements, in that 30, 60, 90 day, or year warranty period, if any.

I wouldn't go with 250-400w metal halide HID bulbs. I would probably look at the metal halide 100-150w versions. You'll get both, an increase in light and a reduction in energy used. Without knowing how much more lighting is needed, it is for you to test and see. Is it a hockey skate rink for teams, or just for local fun, couples/families skating around at their own pace? Do you want it to look like broad daylight and grow some greenhouse plants? or just to increase lighting safety and eliminate some dark areas in between the poles and across the skating rink? Do you need some spill or flood for the surrounding seating/lacing up area, picnic tables, parking lot, or not? Is energy reduction mandatory?

Your local electrical contractor should be able to show you some of the lights, in action, in yards, parking lots..... that he has installed over the years, to help you decide on additional 'power' needed.

I have used the 10w, 20w, 50w, 100w.... foreign sourced LED floodlights. I find that they are excellent. But, you might need to buy 7 to get 6 working, or be able to repair a broken one. Shipping overseas can be slow, damaging, and warranty is 'nil'. You can find them on Ebay, Amazon, and various online sellers which gives you a Ebay, Paypal, or CreditCard return/dispute 30-day pseudo-warranty option. This means that you should install the import LEDs immediately after receiving them. LED options are to use 2-6x(20-70w) to supplement your current lighting, or just grabbing 6x 90w-150w LED floods and get the increased lighting along with the power savings. These foreign sourced lights are best for tinkerers, since sometimes the LEDs or drivers are poorly mounted and self destruct from a short circuit or overheat. My recommendation is to source just ONE of the 100w floodlights from Ebay to test/see how it does. I find that warm white LED is more tolerable than the overly annoying cool white floods. But, you'll get more output from the LED 'cools'. The lack of local support for your LED flood light is something that you need to consider, as you might need to replace the driver or LED in the future(local handyman electronic technician). These import LED lights are easy to disassemble, repair, or upgrade in the future.

Some electricians may show negativity to, and do everything to avoid LEDs that they are not familiar with, sticking to habits and pushing what they know works or what has local support/parts.... They might shun away from unknown brand LEDs to stuff that works in your location/weather. You can push to be an early adopter to the LED flood, or just go with the flow.

Some 100w bulbs at the local stores here or online:
100w incan or halogen, depending on frosting and bulb type.... ~1200-1700 lumen
100w metal halide, depending on brand...... ~8500 lumen (could be as high as 12000lm and fade to 6000lm).
100w LED warm-cool, realistically..... ~5000-9000 lumen(warm is typically 20% less than cool, minimal fade with name-brand LEDs and major fade with generic LEDs)

It doesn't take much halide HID or LED to trump your ~3000 lumen 200w incans.

Both LED and HID will fade over time. How much is something you'll notice over time, and shouldn't much of an issue if you're doubling the amount of light available. LED, driver, transformer, HID bulb, ballast.... can fail at any time, especially considering local weather and quality of the components. A decade on either is reasonable before replacement or upgrade, with a few possible any-part replacements over that decade.

 

[SemiMan]

Watt for watt, LED and metal halide are similar in the lighting areas that I've seen. I haven't seen one trump the other at the same watt rating. Not sure why some members here are trying to compare 100w LED's to 250w metal halides. Failure comparison!.

Having done quite a few lighting studies, I can say pretty confidently that with modern LED fixtures, LED and HID are not watt for watt, at least in the 100 - 250watt range. The LED fixtures I am looking at today are 90+ lumens/watt with 80% lumen maintenance to 50,000 hours. I am lucky if I am getting 80 lumens/watt out of the HID with 70% lumen maintenance at < 15,000 hours with a new fixture. If its an old fixture, that may be more like 60% lumen maintenance. Right there you have 30-45% efficiency improvements. When you start looking at placement accuracy of the light, then you start adding another 20-40% improvement. So that 250 metal halide can be replaced with 150 quite often.


bootsnixon, if you ask nicely, one of the big electrical distributors may be willing to do a lighting layout for you with new fixtures so you can see what sort of lighting you will get before installing it.

Semiman

 

[deadrx7conv]

I won't disagree having seen the cree/citizen/bridgelux/sharp... LED fixtures from big name manufacturers. Semi, I'm talking about the <$200 import generic which IMO will match the fade of the HID. Not all can afford the $1000-2000 fancy LED fixtures. I think that 5k-10k hours on a generic LED is pushing it. But, the LED housing is rebuildable and quality LEDs can be sourced in that 5-10 year fade or failure point.

Now, compare that 200w OP's incan to a 100-150w halide when new and after a decade of HID fade? End of life 100w HID still has how much more light than 200w incan?

 

[blasterman]

wouldn't go with 250-400w metal halide HID bulbs. I would probably look at the metal halide 100-150w versions.

Halides in the 250-400watt range are orders of magnitude more common in commercial packages. That's why I advised that wattage range.

I think that 5k-10k hours on a generic LED is pushing it.

Excellent point. There are LED fixtures that match the out-put of 250watt halides as SemiMan indicated. However, they are $$expensive$$, and the 100watt fixture linked by the OP would be lucky to push 60 lumens per watt out the front. The Semi / Epistar based arrays just aren't that good.

 

[bootsnixon]

Thanks so much for all the replies. I'm learning lots. I will try to add a bit more information and answer some questions. The rink has no organized games and is used for general skating and games of shinny. Tracking the puck is when you notice the poor lighting the most. The existing lights were Mogul base incandescent but we bought reducers to the regular household (medium?) bases as the bulbs were quite a bit cheaper. Mostly we are concerned with just lighting the rink as we have a covered shed that is lit where skates are put on.
A couple of points I think might be helpful:
We are looking for some added robustness. The current lights have no covers so the bulbs are open to below and from time to time they get shattered by kids throwing rocks so it would be nice if they were a little tougher. This does not seem to be too big of a problem though.
We recieved a one-time grant this summer from the government to fix up the arena but all other times, the expenses are paid out of pocket by the neighborhood association. Because of this, we are willing to spend extra to get the right lights in hopes our ongoing expenses can be reduced. Our budget is $1500 for the 6 new lights.
Deadrx- thanks for the lumen comparison, that will help.
Blasterman- could you tell me what you mean by " Semi/Epistar based arrays aren't that good"?

 

[SemiMan]

I won't disagree having seen the cree/citizen/bridgelux/sharp... LED fixtures from big name manufacturers. Semi, I'm talking about the <$200 import generic which IMO will match the fade of the HID. Not all can afford the $1000-2000 fancy LED fixtures. I think that 5k-10k hours on a generic LED is pushing it. But, the LED housing is rebuildable and quality LEDs can be sourced in that 5-10 year fade or failure point.

Now, compare that 200w OP's incan to a 100-150w halide when new and after a decade of HID fade? End of life 100w HID still has how much more light than 200w incan?

Your prices are dated. 100 watt LED fixtures from quality suppliers are under $500. Indoor fixtures in an around the 200 watt mark are not much more than $600-700.

HID is infinitely better than the incandescent, that was never in question.

Semiman

 

[SemiMan]

Based on your budget, HID is your only option. The bottoms will be aluminum, but the front glass and still can be damaged. You are going to need some budget in there for an electrician though hopefully as a community you can get one to donate his time (and bucket truck). 1500 does not buy a lot when you need the fixture, bulbs, possibly some mechanical pieces to mount, etc. You are going to be thrilled with the results though.

There is a Westburne in Red Deer (I have no affiliation). They should be able to help you out. They have lighting specialists, though unlikely in that branch. They can connect you with one.


Westburne Red Deer Mon-Fri : 7:00AM - 5:00PM

6857, 52nd Avenue
Red Deer, Alberta, Ca, T4N 4L2
Tel.: (403) 343-2155
Fax: (403) 347-9955

 

[mattheww50]

Thanks for the advice Blasterman. What can you expect for bulb life on metal halides? Are they good in cold weather? We are in Red Deer, Alberta so we get pretty cold but I would imagine only need to light down to -20c. That brings to mind another question. Being as they are on a timer, will the lights lifespan be shortened trying to turn on in -40c temperature? We generally get that a few times each winter.
Thanks,
bootsnixon

Lamp life on most HID lamps is closely tied to the number of cycles. Starting lamps is pretty hard on them. In most applications you can expect a 10,000-15,000 hour life with products like GE Multi-Vapor lamps, which generally have reasonable CRI(up to 75 in some versions). When new these lamps (in the 175-250 watt category) can be expected to produce right around 100 lumens per watt.

IF ultimate efficiency is your goal, Low Pressure Sodium (LPS) wins hands down. The problem with LPS is the color rendition is awful, but you can get up to 200 lumens per watt. High Pressure Sodium (HPS) has better color rendition, but still nowhere near good Metal Halide lamps, with efficiency typically just in excess of 100 lumens per watt.

The downside of HID lighting is they are not 'instant on' like incandescents. Once powered on, they usually take several minutes to reach full output, and most ballasts lack 'hot start' capability. I.E. if the lights go out for any reason, the lamps need to cool down before they start. This is typically on the order of 10 minutes. So if you turn them off, or have a power failure, you are going to be in the dark for a while. The other thing to watch out for with HID lighting is the actual burn position of the lamp makes a difference. There are base down lamps, base up lamps, and horizontal burning lamps. Make sure the lamps you buy match the intended burn position. There are some HID lamps that are 'universal ' burn (they will operate satisfactorily in any burn position).

 

[SemiMan]

It's lighting for a hockey rink .... why even bring up HPS or LPS?

 

[Ken_McE]

We are looking for some added robustness. The current lights have no covers so the bulbs are open to below and from time to time they get shattered by kids throwing rocks so it would be nice if they were a little tougher.

No matter what you get, it would be easy to add a rock screen while you have someone up there working on it anyhow. Here south of the border we have something we call "hardware cloth". It is just steel wire woven in a coarse mesh screen. For your purpose the quarter inch or half inch mesh would work fine. (sorry don't know what they call it in metric) Just hinge it to hang out of the way when someone needs to work on the light. A plexiglass (or do you call it Perspex up there??) sheet would also work but they collect dirt and dead bugs.

 

[deadrx7conv]

Please list the suppliers of these $500-700 quality 100w LED floodlights. Last time I checked, GE and Cooper were still pushing $1500. I found an 80w Lithonia for $800 and Rabb for $600. I also think in local USD. Canada shipping/taxes/$/customs is unknown to me.

Instant on $200 Chinese 100w flood are a great deal. The ones that I've installed work great. But, I tend to dis/re-assemble and tighten 'em up prior to install. Satisled is a good online store and also sells the enclosure if you build your own with better LEDs and drivers..
I still will recommend 1-2 for testing prior to making a final decision. If you end up with 4-5 metal halide, at least it won't be pitch black out if there is an outage or accidental switch mishap while waiting for the restrike and warmup of the halide.

The glass on the import flood is pretty tough. And, it would be easy to replace with security type vandal proof stuff. You would need pretty impressive aim to take out the LED. It will still light with broken glass.

Btw, you should look up the exact spec of your current bulbs. A23, BS30, and halogen bulbs in the 200-250w might crank 3k-5k lm, depending on bulb life/frosting...
You don't want to miscalculate that 50-100% lighting increase by underestimating current lighting.

Those old incans can also be relocated onto the opposite sides of the pole with a separate switch for the fans who watch the tooth loss and blood lettings.

 

[badnerk]

Chiming in from WInnipeg here,

How did your Red Deer upgrade go?

I am planning the replacement of the lighting on one of our community centre rinks too. Currently one rink has 8-1000W Lithonia MH fixtures mounted on 30' poles. Very nice. The other rink has 8-1500W halogens and 16-250W MV streetlight-style fixtures. I would like to put in 8 new induction fixtures, but at roughtly 12 years between replacements for MH lamps it might be best to just go witht them.

How does light output compare between MH and Induction watt for watt? The zero start up time and instant relight of induction makes them attractive, as does the 100K hour lifespan. How does cost compare?

Glad I found this thread.

 

[SemiMan]

Chiming in from WInnipeg here,

How did your Red Deer upgrade go?

I am planning the replacement of the lighting on one of our community centre rinks too. Currently one rink has 8-1000W Lithonia MH fixtures mounted on 30' poles. Very nice. The other rink has 8-1500W halogens and 16-250W MV streetlight-style fixtures. I would like to put in 8 new induction fixtures, but at roughtly 12 years between replacements for MH lamps it might be best to just go witht them.

How does light output compare between MH and Induction watt for watt? The zero start up time and instant relight of induction makes them attractive, as does the 100K hour lifespan. How does cost compare?

Glad I found this thread.

Induction fluorescent is a technology whose time has come and gone already pretty much. Yes they last, but the efficiency is no where near modern LED fixtures. Induction fluorescent is barely better than modern metal halide when it comes right down to it. If you are only replacing bulbs every 12 years, then a 100 year life is meaningless. Even at the municipal level for something like this, it is hard to justify greater than a 10 year payback especially when the warranty may not be that long.

Personally if you are only replacing bulbs every 12 years, I would stick to the MH. Instant restrike is nice, but is it truly needed? 1000W MH is hard to compete with with any current technology at least in terms of getting any payback at your usage level.

I am not aware of any single fixture induction fluorescent that would even come close to the output of a 1000watt MH.

Last, and certainly not least, and likely the most important thing, is that most induction fluorescent fixture are optically poor. The ability to control light is somewhat a factor of the size of the source in ration to the size of the optic/fixture. Induction bulbs are comparatively enormous. That makes it very difficult to control the light. I would do a quick lighting simulation before making any changes.

Semiman