Any ideas about the Muyshondt Beagle?

[alphaBRAVO]

Also, several very good stickies at the top of the Flashlight Electronics subforum here. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?9-Flashlight-Electronics-Batteries-Included

You probably want to check out
- Simple guide to using a DMM for measurements
- Using Li-ion cells in LED flashlights safely

Really appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[alphaBRAVO]

I didn't look at the post you quoted, but here's what I think logicalbeard meant:

Some newer single-cell lights (like the Beagle) have a wider bore diameter to accomodate larger, higher capacity li-ion rechargeables. The beagle will take either a 16340 or a 18350. Both run at 4.2v (when fully charged), but are different dimensions and mah capacity. The 16340 is 16mm in diameter and 34mm long, usually about 700 mah capacity. The 18350 is 18mm in diameter and 35mm long, and the bigger size allows a capacity closer to 1200 mah.

NOTE: CR123 primaries (single use, non-rechargeable) are the same size as a 16340 but with 3v lithium chemistry. They have a capacity more similar to an 18350 (1200-1400 mah). The Beagle will accept CR123s, or 16340s, or 18350s.

In the body/battery tube of lghts like the Beagle, the difference in battery length (1mm) is negligible because of the spring contacts - they just compress a little more to accomodate the longer battery.

But the diameter of the battery tube must obviously be rigid/fixed. Some older lights like the HDS Executive or Rotary only accept 16mm cells, precluding the use of 18350s and the longer runtime. But the Beagle's diameter is purposefully wider to provide the user the option to use either 16mm or 18mm cells. But if the user then inserts a 16340s or CR123 (16mm diameter) into the larger diameter battery tube, then sometimes the smaller battery will rattle around inside the 18mm compartment (this is the "problem" he was solving). To prevent this rattle, some manufacturers will include a 2mm battery "sleeve" into which the battery is inserted to make a tight fit and prevent rattle. Sounds like Muyshondt includes this sleeve with the Beagle for tight fitment.

Finally, many 18350 or 18650 lights actually have a inside diameter of closer to 19mm, because battery manufacturers don't exactly adhere to the standard (their batteries are chubby as they compete with their competitors to eke out a few more mah) and flashlight vendors want to make sure these chubbier non-spec batteries will work to keep the customer happy. So even true 18mm cells will rattle inside many a flashlight body (i.e. Convoy S2+, BOSS 70, HDS 18650 tube, etc). My solution is to wrap some blue painters tape around the battery as a DIY sleeve to make up the differnence.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in if I got any wires crossed. Hope this helps.

Wow. Thanks for your time in crafting this detailed explainer. You've even managed to supply enough info to address questions I didn't yet know I had, but surely would have asked down the line.

So for a Beagle: Until I'm better versed on safety and best practices, might this be fairly idiot-proof?

1. A protected 18350 like the KeepPower 1200mAh 18350 P1835C2 protected li-ion rechargeable battery (http://www.keeppower.com.cn/products_detail.php?id=566) together with

2. Xtar Dragon VP4 Plus Li-ion/NiMH/11.1V 3S Charger and Battery Analyzer (https://www.illumn.com/xtar-dragon-vp4-plus-li-ion-nimh-11-1v-3s-charger-and-battery-analyzer.html)

Am I correct that this protected battery will shut off to protect itself and the torch when voltage drops below critical levels?
Will this charger (and most other reputable, well-made chargers) have circuitry to shut of charging once batteries have reached capacity?

Finally, for non-protected cells, like Muyshondt's 18350 (https://shop.muyshondt.net/products/18350-power-cell) how do users stay safe? From experience does one observe a visible drop-off in beam intensity? Do users typically keep batteries topped up and just have a "feel" based on time used or other factors? Certainly doesn't seem practical to pop batteries out of one's torch all the time to test voltage.

With great thanks again for your reply and help!

 

[jon_slider]

for non-protected cells, like Muyshondt's 18350

sent you a PM with more info

 

[lion504]

So for a Beagle: Until I'm better versed on safety and best practices, might this be fairly idiot-proof?

1. A protected 18350 like the KeepPower 1200mAh 18350 P1835C2 protected li-ion rechargeable battery (http://www.keeppower.com.cn/products_detail.php?id=566) together with

2. Xtar Dragon VP4 Plus Li-ion/NiMH/11.1V 3S Charger and Battery Analyzer (https://www.illumn.com/xtar-dragon-vp4-plus-li-ion-nimh-11-1v-3s-charger-and-battery-analyzer.html)

Am I correct that this protected battery will shut off to protect itself and the torch when voltage drops below critical levels?
Will this charger (and most other reputable, well-made chargers) have circuitry to shut of charging once batteries have reached capacity?

Finally, for non-protected cells, like Muyshondt's 18350 (https://shop.muyshondt.net/products/18350-power-cell) how do users stay safe? From experience does one observe a visible drop-off in beam intensity? Do users typically keep batteries topped up and just have a "feel" based on time used or other factors? Certainly doesn't seem practical to pop batteries out of one's torch all the time to test voltage.

I had a lot of these same questions!

Ref the charger: the VP4 Dragon is a good charger according to HKJ. His review here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...3-Test-review-of-Charger-Xtar-VP4-Plus-Dragon. I have the VC4 and like it a lot. Yes, the charger will stop charging the battery when voltage reaches the max of 4.2. The bay indicate light will turn green and display "FULL" on the display at this point. I don't hover over the charger, but check periodically when I'm using it. As soon as I see it's full/green, I take it out. Sometimes that's not until the next AM if I'm charging at night.

My rule of thumb is to use unprotected batteries with lights that provide low voltage protection (i.e. PFlexPro or Oveready).

I insist on using protected (or primary) batteries in lights without low voltage protection (like my Surefire Z2 with Malkoff M61). I don't have a Beagle, but my understanding is that it doesn't provide low voltage protection. So I think you're smart to use the protected cell. There's some good discussion earlier in this thread where @scout24 and @archimedes weigh in on this (starting around post 64).

But my understanding is that relying on either form of battery protection is more of disaster avoidance, and not a good practice. Many of the more experienced flashaholics seem to recommend recharging when no-load voltage drops to like 3.5v. How to avoid reaching this level or know when you have? Here's what I've been able to figure out:
(1) recharge really often just to be safe
(2) pull the cell out of the light and test it on a DMM (not the most convenient)
(3) a lot of experience using and testing the cell which gets you to the point that you just kinda know it's low (not the most precise, and not practical for newbs like us)
(4) realizing when the cell drops out of regulation and output starts to dim (but this will probably be a lower discharge than the 3.5v ideal though, and thus not the best option)
(5) and finally, my preferred - using the voltage check feature provided by some drivers to tell you the voltage without load (again, Oveready and PFlexPro provide this feature - for example, 8 half presses gets you 1 blink for every .12 volts above 3 with Randy's AP driver; similarly, OR has the 111 PIN for batt check) - but unfortunately I don't think this is a feature of the Beagle.

Hopefully you'll get some more detailed comments..

 

[lion504]

Here is some useful info from Jason's website at darksucks.com:
https://darksucks.com/collections/battery-chargers/products/xtar-vc4-multi-charger

>> BATTERY CARE:
In my personal use, I will put the battery on the charger if I've used it for more than 10-20 minutes. At this level of shallow discharge the battery will top up in 40-80 minutes.
DO NOT leave the battery in the charger for an extended period of time. Overnight is fine. The MC1 has a safety feature to prevent over-charge, but best practice dictates that you should remove the battery when the charge cycle is complete.
The Xtar VC4 has a "charge checking" feature that will periodically check the battery voltage if it's left in the cradle. When the voltage drops below 4.0V the charger will proceed to fill the battery back up to 4.2V. The VC4 will not begin a charge if the battery is above 4.0V.
If you put a battery on the charger and the LED stays green, this means your battery is above 4.0V and ready for use.
Please note, deeply discharging a li-ion battery also reduces its life span.
Unlike other chemistries, li-ion has no "memory effect" so you can charge it any time without loosing capacity. In other words, it's best for battery health to recharge frequently rather than waiting till the battery is "dead."

 

[alphaBRAVO]

Thanks so much for your thoughts and insight. This is tremendously useful information. I've been working my way through your suggested reading, but wanted to say thank you in the meanwhile.

I had a lot of these same questions!

Ref the charger: the VP4 Dragon is a good charger according to HKJ. His review here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...3-Test-review-of-Charger-Xtar-VP4-Plus-Dragon. I have the VC4 and like it a lot. Yes, the charger will stop charging the battery when voltage reaches the max of 4.2. The bay indicate light will turn green and display "FULL" on the display at this point. I don't hover over the charger, but check periodically when I'm using it. As soon as I see it's full/green, I take it out. Sometimes that's not until the next AM if I'm charging at night.

My rule of thumb is to use unprotected batteries with lights that provide low voltage protection (i.e. PFlexPro or Oveready).

I insist on using protected (or primary) batteries in lights without low voltage protection (like my Surefire Z2 with Malkoff M61). I don't have a Beagle, but my understanding is that it doesn't provide low voltage protection. So I think you're smart to use the protected cell. There's some good discussion earlier in this thread where @scout24 and @archimedes weigh in on this (starting around post 64).

But my understanding is that relying on either form of battery protection is more of disaster avoidance, and not a good practice. Many of the more experienced flashaholics seem to recommend recharging when no-load voltage drops to like 3.5v. How to avoid reaching this level or know when you have? Here's what I've been able to figure out:
(1) recharge really often just to be safe
(2) pull the cell out of the light and test it on a DMM (not the most convenient)
(3) a lot of experience using and testing the cell which gets you to the point that you just kinda know it's low (not the most precise, and not practical for newbs like us)
(4) realizing when the cell drops out of regulation and output starts to dim (but this will probably be a lower discharge than the 3.5v ideal though, and thus not the best option)
(5) and finally, my preferred - using the voltage check feature provided by some drivers to tell you the voltage without load (again, Oveready and PFlexPro provide this feature - for example, 8 half presses gets you 1 blink for every .12 volts above 3 with Randy's AP driver; similarly, OR has the 111 PIN for batt check) - but unfortunately I don't think this is a feature of the Beagle.

Hopefully you'll get some more detailed comments..

 

[alphaBRAVO]

So I was out visiting my dad tonight when I looked inside my pocket, and the Beagle was on. But something was strange. The light was flickering. So the battery came out, and I checked the voltage. 2.05 volts. I never discharge below 3.7 or 3.6 volts. This is upsetting. This is the3rd time this light has come on in my pocket. And with no way to lock out the light, this is a problem I can't avoid. Now I might have ruined the battery, and it's not like it was from negligence. I'll be charging at 100 mah starting when I get home in about 10 minutes. Even if everything works out now I'll be wondering if or
how badly I've damaged the cell and or shortened its life expectancy.

For you guys to know, the light did not cut off at 2.5 volts. It didn't cut off.

What do you use to charge at 100 mah? I'm assuming that's safer and better for the battery? Given I'm still learning, were my Beagle to discharge that low because it accidentally turned on, I'd toss it. My charger uses optional 0.5A/1.0A/2.0A charge currents, and I've been using 0.5A.

 

[alphaBRAVO]

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You've got 10 or 11 posts on this page alone, and have received comments back from several members. If your light dims, take the cell out and recharge it. Or run primaries if you're that concerned or run protected cells. ...

correct, the Beagle has no built in overdischarge protection, and the Muyshondt 183501 IMR has no protection circuit.
It would we safer to use a protected battery....

You both suggest primary CR123As are a safe(r) alternative to non protected 18350s. With that in mind, I bought a handful of them both as a long-term storage/emergency option as well as for travel without worry of dealing with chargers. Then I found this terrifying thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?340028-Flashlight-Explosion

Might protected 18350s be safer than CR123A disposables? You both believe CR123As are safer than (unprotected) IMR/INR/NMC/LiNiMnCoO2 cells?

 

[lion504]

Single CR123s are considered safer because they are designed to be used (safely) until completely empty. No need for a protection circuit, because it will never be recharged. Contrast this with rechargeables, where the user has to (somehow) monitor voltage to avoid overdischarge, because the cell WILL be recharged/used again.

HOWEVER... the thread you linked to describes the danger of using multiple primaries in series, where the voltages/capacities are mismatched. In this situation, when batteries are in series and one battery drains before another due to different capacities, energy is still being forced through the dead battery. The result is that the dead battery experiences a reverse charge. My understanding is this is similar to putting a primary CR123 in a battery charger. The likely/worst case result in both cases would be venting with flame, which I believe is what happened to @JNieporte.

Personally, I never use multiple cells in a light if it can be avoided. For example, I always use a single cell (18650 or 16650) in my BOSS 70, 6p, Z2, S2+, etc, even if the driver supports > 4.2V.

If you do use multiple cells in series, most recommend to use same brand, purchased at same time, charged to same voltage, etc. In other words, always keep/use as a matched pair.

But the good news is that your Beagle is single cell only, so you can confidently use a solitary 123, knowing it is safer than the Li-ion (16340 or 18350) alternative.

 

[alphaBRAVO]

So helpful. Thanks!

Single CR123s are considered safer because they are designed to be used (safely) until completely empty....

 

[archimedes]

So helpful....

Hi and welcome to CPF @alphaBRAVO ....

During a discussion thread, there is no need to "requote" sizable prior posts in their entirety, especially if the original is just a few posts away.

This makes threads very difficult to read, especially on mobile devices.

If it is obvious from context to what you refer, no quotation is needed. If it might not be clear, a brief quote is fine, but please limit it to a small partial "clipping" instead.

I have provided an example, above

Thanks for understanding, and cheers.

 

[alphaBRAVO]

Thanks for the warm welcome. And thanks to everyone for their patience, insight, and humor.