BMW developing laser headlights

js82

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Re: Laser lights

I really don't understand this "laser light" stuff.

First off, since laser is by definition coherent light with a single frequency, how do they get white light? Have 3 different laser colors (RGB) or something?

And I don't understand the part where they say "light not being emitted directly, but initially converted into a form that is suitable for use in road traffic". So if it's not emitted as light, then what other form of energy is it emitted as that's suitable for road traffic?

How can it be not dangerous to people? Anything with a very high lux would be dangerous, wouldn't it? Hills and road bumps exist. There's no way they're not gonna get somebody in the eye with that.

This all seems like a lot of marketing gimmick to me.
 

Th232

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Re: Laser lights

Press release here:
http://www.bmwusanews.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=33AB74E2112F881C900824B14276CECF?&id=766&mid=

Importantly, therefore, before the light from the tiny laser diodes is emitted onto the road, the originally bluish laser light beam is first of all converted by means of a fluorescent phosphor material inside the headlight into a pure white light which is very bright and pleasant to the eye.

Sounds like an LED to me, only difference is the exact type of die used to emit the original blue light.
 

Norm

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Laser lights Merged with BMW developing laser headlights - Norm
 
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alpg88

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actually it is possible to get white laser by mixing different color lasers, it has been done, if it can bve done at home http://www.rog8811.com/whitelaserpointer.htm, i have no doubts bmw can do it too, also shine a laser thru few frosted lenses, or bounce it if dimpled mirror than frosted lenses, and see what happens. now if you reaserch it more in the lab.... idk why anyone doubts it.
why they do it, is a different story, but i'm sure they have perfectly good reason to.
 

tatteredmidnight

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actually it is possible to get white laser by mixing different color lasers, it has been done, if it can bve done at home http://www.rog8811.com/whitelaserpointer.htm, i have no doubts bmw can do it too, also shine a laser thru few frosted lenses, or bounce it if dimpled mirror than frosted lenses, and see what happens. now if you reaserch it more in the lab.... idk why anyone doubts it.
why they do it, is a different story, but i'm sure they have perfectly good reason to.

I think there are other important things to consider besides the "visible" color of the light. I'd be very interested to see the spectral graph of a "white" laser sans phosphors. Since Lasers are single wavelength, I'd think the graph would be very spikey, with big dips between the frequencies. That would wreak havoc on its color rendition, and some colors may barely reflect at all. Also, without a phosphor, diffusing the beam would be problematic. By using phosphors they kill 2 birds with one stone. You get good color rendition and its self-diffusing.
 

alpg88

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I think there are other important things to consider besides the "visible" color of the light. I'd be very interested to see the spectral graph of a "white" laser sans phosphors. Since Lasers are single wavelength, I'd think the graph would be very spikey, with big dips between the frequencies. That would wreak havoc on its color rendition, and some colors may barely reflect at all. Also, without a phosphor, diffusing the beam would be problematic. By using phosphors they kill 2 birds with one stone. You get good color rendition and its self-diffusing.
you may be right, will see when the time comes.
 

PhotonWrangler

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Laser car headlights

BMW says they're seriously considering laser headlights on their cars within the next few years. Not direct laser illumination but a blue laser that excites a phosphor disc. The article mentions "1000 times brighter," but I don't think they're intending to launch that much more power out the front of the lens. Looks interesting though.
 

-Virgil-

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Re: Laser car headlights

Sheesh, these headlamps are turning into a real fish story...the fish (or the fibs) get bigger every time the story is printed in another news source! The press release breathlessly babbles "laser lighting is monochromatic, which means the light waves all have the same length. It's also a "coherent" light source, which means that its waves have a constant phase difference. As a result, laser lighting can produce a near-parallel beam with intensity a thousand times greater than that of conventional LEDs."

Translation: Some ignorant reporter looked on Wikipedia, grabbed a few science-y looking buzzphrases from the article on LEDs, and tossed 'em in to meet his or her deadline. No, they are not a thousand times brighter than any other headlamp. No, there's no such thing as a "near parallel beam". No, "the waves have a constant phase difference" doesn't mean anything in the context of automotive headlamps, laser or otherwise.

For an explanation of the state of this bit of art based on reality rather than ignorant hype, see here. Also previous thread here.
 

idleprocess

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Re: Laser car headlights

Last time I read about these, they were claiming an astounding 175 lm/W, which must have used some curious math, like lumens per radiated watt, as opposed to the more conventional (and more meaningful) lumens per electrical input watt.

Like all press releases (which the earlier articles were near-exclusively based upon), one will have to wait for the real thing before you really know what it is and how it works.
 

Norm

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Laser car head lights Merged with BMW developing laser headlights - Norm
 

curby

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As per #31 I guess this is the general laser headlight thread. As a light quality fan, what kinds of color temperature and color rendering are these laser-driven phosphor headlights getting? How does that compare to headlights which use LEDs?
 

Tachikoma

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Just in from Audi: http://gizmodo.com/audis-quattro-laserlight-concept-car-is-a-gorgeous-fu-1496073321

The powerful laser diodes are significantly smaller than LED diodes; they are only a few microns in diameter. Illuminating the road for a distance of nearly 500 meters (1,640 ft), the laser high-beam light has approximately twice the lighting range and three times the luminosity of LED high beam lights. In this future technology, Audi is once again demonstrating its leadership role in automotive lighting technology with a system that will also be used on the race track in the 2014 R18 e-tron quattro.
The car also got the Matrix LED headlights that Audi has announced in the past.
 
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For what it's worth, I'll try to explain them the way I understand them.

Light sources are easier to control when they are points. Generally smaller points require smaller optics to control. HIDs came before LEDs, and usually have better beams than LED and halogen for this reason. LEDs have an advantage over both because the point source does not move relative to the reflector. LEDs also (technically) have an advantage when it comes to lifespan since they're solid-state. The biggest issues with LEDs for automotive use is the limited size of the optics relative to the die size, and the cooling of the diode, which is required at the light source.

They're attempting to solve both of the issues by separating the blue LED die from the phosphor chip, so the phosphor can be mounted in front of the reflector with minimal cooling. They're also replacing the LED die with a laser, and moving it (along with the cooling problems) behind the reflector. By projecting the concentrated beam of laser energy onto a small phosphor chip, they are creating a tiny white point source, allowing them to downsize the optics, and retain an accurate beam.
 

-Virgil-

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Sorry to bring rain, electromage, but much of what you wrote is a fairly complete misunderstanding, i.e., not correct. Here are the parts of what you wrote that are right:

By projecting the concentrated beam of laser energy onto a small phosphor chip, they are creating a tiny white point source --- HIDs came before LEDs --- LEDs also (technically) have an advantage when it comes to lifespan.
 
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Sorry to bring rain, electromage, but much of what you wrote is a fairly complete misunderstanding, i.e., not correct. Here are the parts of what you wrote that are right:

You're not going to correct me? Given your terse response I could make some crazy assumptions about what is correct, but I'm not afraid of learning. So, what's the benefit of a small point of light if it doesn't allow more design flexibility with the optics? Why don't they just stick a traditional LED with a huge heat sink in front of the reflector? What's the point of all this?

I know what misunderstanding means, you don't need to talk down to me because I don't share your vast knowledge and experience of this topic. That's how it came across, anyway.
 

-Virgil-

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You're not going to correct me?

Sorry; I have been in four and a half different time zones in the last ten days, and I was probably not at my best when I wrote post #37. I do not intend to talk down to you.

Light sources are easier to control when they are points.

This is sort of true and sort of not. It has been true in the past when all forward lighting used relatively simple imaging optics and a point source, for sure. But with the LED revolution, new imaging and non-imaging optical techniques alike have been making big, fast strides -- and while light source size is still an important factor, things are no longer as simple as "smaller = better" (this is strictly from the engineering viewpoint; stylists have varying but definite opinions on the matter of size vs. betterness).

Generally smaller points require smaller optics to control.

I don't agree with this in general.

HIDs came before LEDs, and usually have better beams than LED and halogen for this reason.

I can't agree. For one thing, the chronological order of introduction of a light source doesn't have a lot to do with the quality or safety performance of the headlamp that incorporates it. Some LED headlamps are better than some HID headlamps, and vice versa. Some LED headlamps are better than some halogen headlamps, and vice versa. There are good and bad implementations of every technology.

LEDs have an advantage over both because the point source does not move relative to the reflector.

This makes so little sense that I think maybe it's just not coming across the way you meant it. There are very few headlamps of any type in which the light source moves relative to the optics. There were a few reflector-type BiXenon headlamps (2nd-generation Prius, a few Volvo models) but mostly that kind of architecture did not find favor and in most headlamps of any type, the light source and the optics do not move relative to each other.

Moreover, most LED headlamps do not have a point light source, strictly speaking.

The biggest issues with LEDs for automotive use is the limited size of the optics relative to the die size, and the cooling of the diode, which is required at the light source.

Thermal management is certainly one of the important issues in the design of an LED headlamp, but it really is no longer the big obstacle it was a few years ago, and it is getting gradually less so as emitters and optics get better and so less power is disippated for any given amount of light in the beam. I don't think I agree that limited size of optics relative to LED size is one of the major constraints, but maybe here again I don't understand what you have in mind. Can you elaborate?

They're attempting to solve both of the issues by separating the blue LED die from the phosphor chip

I don't agree here, either. For one thing, there are no remote-phosphor LED headlamps. Remote-phosphor LED lighting does exist, but this technology has not been applied to automotive headlamps because it's not well matched for the application; it tends to generate a very homogenous, diffuse light rather than anything that could be readily manipulated into a controlled beam pattern.

Laser-activated remote-phosphor lighting (LARP) is what we're talking about in this thread. The distinction between an LED and a laser diode is not trivial, it's crucial. They aren't the same thing. The laser diode pointed at the remote phosphor plate generates a tiny point of very sharply delineated, very high luminance light, and that serves as the point source for the headlamp. This really is almost entirely different from the techniques involved with LED headlamps.

so the phosphor can be mounted in front of the reflector with minimal cooling.

It's not the phosphor that needs careful thermal management, it's the LED emitter/s or the laser diode(s).
 
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