Chevrolet Volt's Battery Pack re-Ignited

[Wrend]

...and also the ads before the volt came
out of 230MPG when really it ends up being 38MPG in real world tests...

Both numbers are misleading. Unless you're driving 35+ miles or so between charges, you're not driving using gas to power the car, so MPG is a less relevant number than it is in standard ICE cars.

 

[shadowjk]

..While a regular 10 year old corolla will get you 50mpg highway..

 

[Wrend]

...while MPG in the Volt isn't as relevant. So, what's your point? :shrug:

...

By the way, 50mpg highway for the Corolla seems like a high estimate to me from what I can source.

 

[Wrend]

. . . And that's why I will never own an electronic or hybrid car in my Lifetime.

Because otherwise you plan to burn your garage and leaving your electric car in it without getting it checked out afterwards?

Hopefully you are now capable of avoiding this scenario.

Congratulations. :thumbsup:

...

PS: Here's hoping you don't burn your your garage while your gas powered car is in it in your lifetime.

 

[StarHalo]

There will be no one car that appears overnight that completely changes the car industry; technology will give us individual small evolutionary steps that when added up over time will increase efficiency. Hybrid is just one step, as is direct injection, reverse-flow engines, pneumatic valves, etc.

..While a regular 10 year old corolla will get you 50mpg highway..

Older econo cars are in some instances quite competitive with modern hybrids on the highway, but don't compare at all with city mileage, where most commuting takes place. ~30 city mpg in that older Corolla would be entirely respectable, but not even close to a Prius' 50+ city mpg.

 

[Monocrom]

Congratulations. :thumbsup:

Thank you. I recently got my car back from the collision shop after it was involved in a fender-bender. Nothing exploded during the mild contact. I've had a garaged parking spot for the past decade. Two different models in that 10 year period. Both proven technology gas-engine only models. I sleep very soundly at night.

It's nice relying on technology that has been time proven and tested for more decades than most drivers have been alive. But hey, feel free to roll the dice with your life if that's your choice. Stay classy.

 

[Monocrom]

There will be no one car that appears overnight that completely changes the car industry; technology will give us individual small evolutionary steps that when added up over time will increase efficiency. Hybrid is just one step, as is direct injection, reverse-flow engines, pneumatic valves, etc.

Ironically, James May said it best. Nothing will revolutionize the industry if we have to go backwards in our driving habits. Drivers are used to the concept of road trips. You head out, you fuel up, and you keep going. Repeat as needed. If you have to plug your car in every night as you would an all-electric vehicle, and then carefully map out your driving route to hopefully reach another place where you can once again charge up your car; then it's a giant step backwards. And, that's if nothing goes wrong during the night to inadvertently interrupt the charging process. Otherwise you're stuck at home. Also, better hope that the charge doesn't drop down to nothing all of a sudden while you're driving around.

I experienced both of the above at my last job as a security officer inside the giant Con-Ed complex in Astoria. There were a few times I got stuck inside those cramp, All-Electric, Toyota RAV-4 models that were sometimes issued for use on-site. Hybrid technology isn't much of an answer to the traditional engine since you have to burn fossil fuels in order to make the fuel cells. Modern-day diesel engines are cleaner burning than their older counterparts. You want fuel economy, diesel is the best way to go. You want a Neo-hippie girl to date you while pretending to save the Planet, Hybrid all the way!

 

[Wrend]

Just trying to put things in perspective. I'm not afraid of electric cars in general because there is no rational reason to be.

Really, the only thing about them that makes them less than viable currently is their lack of capacity for range between charges at an initially cost effective price.

I've used unprotected Li-ion cells on a daily basis for a few years now in much less controlled scenarios and have had no issues with them in any way. Of course, I know how to properly use them. I see no reason why they can't be properly used to power electric cars.

I'm not saying the Volt is an ideal solution (I prefer full battery powered electrics), but given that it was in a garage fire and wasn't checked out afterwards, I can't really reasonably expect it to be held at fault here.

 

[StarHalo]

Nothing will revolutionize the industry if we have to go backwards in our driving habits.

Right, and the all-electric car as it is now is not a revolution, it's just an evolutionary step that has a way to go. They're clearly not currently a replacement for a standard combustion engine car, and not for the majority of drivers, but those who sign up are helping to advance the technology and refine it. Somebody had to drive the first fuel-injected cars, first turbocharged cars, first continuously-variable transmission cars, etc, and our cars now are better for it.

 

[Monocrom]

Right, and the all-electric car as it is now is not a revolution, it's just an evolutionary step that has a way to go. They're clearly not currently a replacement for a standard combustion engine car, and not for the majority of drivers, but those who sign up are helping to advance the technology and refine it. Somebody had to drive the first fuel-injected cars, first turbocharged cars, first continuously-variable transmission cars, etc, and our cars now are better for it.

I hear what you're saying. I just honestly think the answer isn't in an all-electric set-up. I honestly don't. I can't say what is. I think that technology is just beyond the horizon. Something that hasn't been tried yet. I see an all-electric vehicle the same way that steam-powered cars used to be. In the early days of the automobile, if you wanted power, I mean sheer brute power; you went with steam power. But steam-powered cars represented a dead-end in the Family Tree of cars. We've seen it happen with lights. I still have my Night-Ops Gladius. So much potential in that one light. All those features, everything it represented . . . A dead-end in the Family Tree of flashlight evolution, as well as revolution.

Hybrid technology is a Stop-Gap measure until something genuinely better comes along. But I see an all-electric set-up as a dead-end on the Tree.

 

[flashflood]

I would make a slightly different bet: that all-electric vehicles are inevitable, but that they require the invention of an energy storage system that may be nothing like a battery.

The energy density of even the best batteries is just terrible -- a few hundred Wh/kg vs. 13,000 Wh/kg for gasoline. Eight gallons of unleaded contains one gigajoule of energy, and you can pump the stuff (or "recharge" the gas tank) at a rate of 10 GPM, which is 20 megawatts. Carbon-based fuels have their problems, but any serious attempt to replace them must begin with an appreciation of how bloody amazing they are.

 

[Wrend]

Having sufficient capacity and capable enough batteries isn't an issue; it's the cost of having that higher capacity. I think batteries will continue to get less expensive and electric cars more viable because of that.

Also, comparing energy per mass between batteries and gasoline isn't completely relevant. Batteries are rechargeable, and gasoline isn't, and you can of course recharge batteries with gasoline and use them to drive in an electric car about as efficiently as using the gasoline in an ICE car, if you want to. The energy in batteries is used significantly more efficiently than the energy in gasoline.

 

[jtr1962]

Hybrid technology is a Stop-Gap measure until something genuinely better comes along. But I see an all-electric set-up as a dead-end on the Tree.

Agreed on hybrids but I feel all-electric is the final step in automotive evolution. We're actually almost there as far as batteries go. Once you're at 300 miles range the charging issue is mostly moot. Few people drive more than 300 miles at a time. Most who do will usually stop for 30 minutes or longer for meals, bathroom breaks, even just to rest. We can charge in 30 minutes now given the proper infrastructure (and it's easier to install charging stations than gas stations). Most long-distance car trips are along Interstate highways anyway. If you install proper charging infrastructure along Interstate highways, you're 99% of the way there as far as being able to take a trip without worrying if you'll be able to charge along the way.

Another possibility with electric cars is to charge the battery enroute. Install cables in the roadway which can inductively transmit power to the car to charge the battery without the need to stop. If you space these charging areas every 50 miles or so, even electric cars using very small batteries could be viable on small trips.

Finally, the majority of car trips are 40 miles or less. Truth is cars really aren't a great way to travel long distances anyway, nor should most really be designed with that kind of travel in mind. We would be far better off using something more appropriate (i.e. high-speed train) for most of a very long trip, then using an EV to go those last few miles.

 

[jtr1962]

The energy density of even the best batteries is just terrible -- a few hundred Wh/kg vs. 13,000 Wh/kg for gasoline. Eight gallons of unleaded contains one gigajoule of energy, and you can pump the stuff (or "recharge" the gas tank) at a rate of 10 GPM, which is 20 megawatts. Carbon-based fuels have their problems, but any serious attempt to replace them must begin with an appreciation of how bloody amazing they are.

You're forgetting the mass of the internal combustion engine and transmission here. The electric motors which drive an electric car weigh a fraction of what an internal combustion engine weighs. That means even with the poor energy density of the batteries, a battery-electric car may not necessarily weigh more than its ICE counterpart.

That being said, when you consider that EVs are "almost there" even with batteries of a few hundred Wh/kg, imagine what would happen if we break 1000 Wh/kg. EVs with 500 to 1000 mile range would exist, making the need to fast charge moot. And this would make ICEs totally obsolete except for niche uses.

 

[flashflood]

You're forgetting the mass of the internal combustion engine and transmission here. The electric motors which drive an electric car weigh a fraction of what an internal combustion engine weighs. That means even with the poor energy density of the batteries, a battery-electric car may not necessarily weigh more than its ICE counterpart.

That being said, when you consider that EVs are "almost there" even with batteries of a few hundred Wh/kg, imagine what would happen if we break 1000 Wh/kg. EVs with 500 to 1000 mile range would exist, making the need to fast charge moot. And this would make ICEs totally obsolete except for niche uses.

Oh, I agree -- the vastly simpler mechanics are why I think electrics will win in the end.

But batteries are only "almost there" if the car is small, uses low-rolling-resistance (and thus nothing like Z-rated) tires, never accelerates aggressively, doesn't run the A/C full-blast, etc. Even then, it requires massive taxpayer subsidies. There is something very wrong with Tesla buyers getting a $10,000 tax break, paid for by people who are struggling to scrape together half that much to buy a used car.

Electric cars will have truly arrived when people start buying them because they are flat-out better than gasoline cars: faster, cheaper, more comfortable (no more transmission hump!). That day will come, but batteries -- or some other form of energy storage -- will have to get a *lot* better to make it happen.

 

[Monocrom]

Agreed on hybrids but I feel all-electric is the final step in automotive evolution. We're actually almost there as far as batteries go. Once you're at 300 miles range the charging issue is mostly moot. Few people drive more than 300 miles at a time. Most who do will usually stop for 30 minutes or longer for meals, bathroom breaks, even just to rest. We can charge in 30 minutes now given the proper infrastructure . . .

Another possibility with electric cars is to charge the battery enroute. Install cables in the roadway which can inductively transmit power to the car to charge the battery without the need to stop. If you space these charging areas every 50 miles or so, even electric cars using very small batteries could be viable on small trips.

The lack of infrastructure is a big problem. Not the only one. But a big one none the less. Charging stations might be easier to install than gas stations, but the demand simply isn't there due to lack of electric cars on the road. Easier to install, but companies who are in business simply have no monetary incentive to put them in. Gas stations are money-makers, charging stations are not.

Installing cables in the roadway simply isn't a pragmatic solution. Folks use highways and expressways everyday. Ripping up the roads to install such cables would cause horrific traffic jams and congestion that would make parking lots look like race tracks. And that's if the money is even there to take on such a Herculian project. It would also take years if not decades to put all of those cables underneath even the most traveled roads in America. Just not a pragmatic solution.

 

[shadowjk]

When I was browsing an online site looking for a new (used) car, I stumbled upon one converted to run on wood. Reading up on the subject, I found a website discussing the details. Apparently one issue is that the wood gassifier doesn't like throttle changes, especially after low power demand there's a big delay before it starts producing maximum gas again. One idea they had was to make a bypass valve and a fan, to suck out the gas and dump it to atmosphere when the engine didn't need it all. Not good for mileage, and at some point some environmentalists would probably get upset at carbon monoxide getting vented like that... Anyways, wouldn't hybrid technology be perfect for this, the engine can continue running at full power, keeping the wood gassifier running at optimum operating point, charging a battery bank.. So now we just need a hybrid with a 5 litre engine, convert it to wood gas, and we'll have the perfect vehicle for a post-oil post-apocalyptic society :-D

 

[127.0.0.1]

is anyone ever going to trust GM to build something safe and reliable ?

GM's own battery lab suffered and unexpected battery explosion. these are the people building
batteries and they can't even do it safely in a lab. I am sticking with my petrol powered engine until I die.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120411/AUTO0103/204110389/Battery-explosion-GM-s-Tech-Center-injures-1-2-people?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE



A General Motors Co. spokesman said one person was injured in the incident while Warren Fire Chief Dave Fredericks put the injured at two.
"We received a call at about 9 a.m. that a battery had exploded at the tech center," Fredericks said. "We responded and found two victims and a small fire. At this point, I don't know the extent of the injuries, but the more serious of the two was taken to St. John Hospital on Moross Road."
According to Fredericks, firefighters are searching for any other fires that might have been caused by the explosion and that a HAZMAT team is at the scene.
A GM spokesman said the explosion took place in a battery research lab.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120411/AUTO0103/204110389#ixzz1rk7TvHc8



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[bshanahan14rulz]

lets hope that was their stress testing and qa lab. I think any company would rather take a loss on a batch of cells that turned out to be bad, then having to recall a bunch of already manufactured and distributed packs.

 

[127.0.0.1]

lets hope that was their stress testing and qa lab. I think any company would rather take a loss on a batch of cells that turned out to be bad, then having to recall a bunch of already manufactured and distributed packs.

stress test or not, you should expect an explosion, and plan the testing to be able
to contain all the energy that could be produced from your stress testing. the fact an unexpected fire
happened in a test lab is a cause for concern for GM...[who is running the place anyway ?]