Designing good daytime rear commuter lights

[BrianMc]

Interesting discussion:thumbsup:.
I can only do low quality videos but this still is of the light in my earlier post at about 120 meters (in daylight). As you can see the light is clearly visible.

You've been down this road before. Nice to have company? :grouphug:


About 400 feet and about 6 seconds at highway speeding and climbing a hill into the wind. The ANSI vest is good for 3 X that in bright low angle sunlight. At high noon, or with shading trees and buildings? That's what a light visible at 400 feet is for.

I am willing to risk being "too bright to be legal" for the safety aspect. Looks like I may have enough loophole to get off, anyway. And the municipal police are not Einsteins so they may back down with a recounting of lumens, lux, and candelas. That puts most people off.:ironic:

So it looks like the options we have are:

1. The Nova Bull list $80, now $40 which need a 12 v supply and a mount.
2. The Dinotte 140L R $120 or $150 with batteries and charger.
3. The Dinotte 400L R $200
4. The K-Lite Red dynamo or battery version, kit or assembled, price varies accordingly. Ktronik may post here soon. With a Bflex multiple battery choices and multiple power levels.
5. A DIY with 1, 3 watt or 3, 1 watt preferably with a lower night setting as that is when "too bright" will likely be an issue.
6. Strings of white LEDs if your head lights are not floody enough to be good DTRLs. There are a few cars with them here (not a lot of BMWs). I will observe. I have seen them close its far I want to watch for.

Pe2er: The car was in the bike path and hogging the whole thing with you oncoming for some time? Thats when a bright tight road beam headlights might work well in the daytime! :devil:

 

[pe2er]

Nice summary of the subject

Pe2er: The car was in the bike path and hogging the whole thing with you oncoming for some time? Thats when a bright tight road beam headlights might work well in the daytime! :devil:

My headlights were on. They always are... Most cars yield as this is a road with road-blocks on either side of the road to slow down traffic. The road block bring cars onto the opposite lane. The VM can stay in its own, that is why I expect them to yield. Most of them do, but not all.

 

[BrianMc]

Nice summary of the subject

My headlights were on. They always are... Most cars yield as this is a road with road-blocks on either side of the road to slow down traffic. The road block bring cars onto the opposite lane. The VM can stay in its own, that is why I expect them to yield. Most of them do, but not all.

Je comprends. Here the nice term is 'jerk' the more colorful metaphor is "a$$hole". It is fortunate that twin cowl mount machnie guns are not legal. I figured your lights were on I was thinking more power. If I look down with the helmet light on half power, that tight patch of light shows up in bright sunlight. Perfect to aim at the driver. :devil: It works too! Already saved two close encounters.

 

[pe2er]

Well, the aspherical lens is in the mail somewhere between HK and NL, so just be patient

 

[pe2er]

Here is the same sort of tail light on my VM. Not that is is entirely different from the one on my bicycle, I just wanted to show of my Alleweder. Just put on new tires this afternoon, and cleaned the rear wheel sprocket. New chain is waiting to be installed, as is a new chain roll. Just waiting for the rear sprocket that is on order at the local bike shop.

First pass is with tail light off. Some neighbor parked his car in the path of my camera (the cam is on a tripod on the hood of my car), so this video is not as clear as the previous one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73s9uPQuzbs

 

[BrianMc]

Here is the same sort of tail light on my VM. Not that is is entirely different from the one on my bicycle, I just wanted to show of my Alleweder.

In scientific testing it is called replication to repeat with a slight variation and it is an evaluation of repeatability of results when the same thing occurs in spite of the small change. So there was no need to confess. (I'd show it off too. )

It is fun to see and I didn't know the pedals bring your feet so close to the ground. This is not a SWB 'bent arrangement. You must have to watch for things in the road/path to place them outside the front track or between the tack and pedals since the rear tire has the centerline.

Back to topic: goodly amount of light. A little more would not hurt, but it isn't screaming for more.

FWIW my wife fell in love with the Strada too. Enough to add a good cycling situation to the next move. Looking good!:thumbsup: She loved the idea of electric assist and the top. $$$$

Just put on new tires this afternoon, and cleaned the rear wheel sprocket. New chain is waiting to be installed, as is a new chain roll. Just waiting for the rear sprocket that is on order at the local bike shop.

Speaking of pieces/parts (and being the OP, I can hijack my own thread if I want to), I noticed that the front hubs are Sturmey Archer Drum brake hubs. I assume they are they the older 70mm not the newer 90 mm? Regardless, what is the scoop on them/your experience. I have a Taiwanese made Schwinn 4020 Chromo lugged frame errand bike. In spite of dragging the brakes to clear them for about .3 km, braking with a load down the last hill before home in snow and or rain at near 0* C, proves to be more excitement than is strictly speaking, good for me. Heart, skull, arms, legs, that sort of thing. One solution is a Sturmey Archer drum brake hub or a generator drum brake hub to supplement rim braking under severe conditions. Which would only require a wheel rebuild and $100-$150 and not a new fork etc $300 -400, demanded by a disc brake. The SA XL-FDD is a new 90 mm size brake generator hub, but I have seen nothing about it googling every 4 months or so since it was announced last sumer. seems to be made of Unobtanium. They are aimed at the commuter and boxfiets of your homeland and nearby regions. If they are not good quality, I will save to replace the whole bike with a used Disc model and make a nice SS of the light steel Schwinn 62 cm (a rare size and very nice fit for me).

OK back to topic.

First pass is with tail light off.

NO!!! Really?! No! Looks almost exactly like my run with flashing Superflashes!
:lolsign:

I was pretty sure, but knew for certain with the second pass.

Some neighbor parked his car in the path of my camera (the cam is on a tripod on the hood of my car), so this video is not as clear as the previous one

Parked in wrong direction by the rules here too, so mirror eclipse is severe. Oh well. 'Coulda bin worser!' Wasn't a tall square delivery truck.

 

[pe2er]

You saw that SA drum brake on the low resolution video ?!

Yes, they are 70mm Sturmey Archer drum brakes on both front wheels. The rear wheel is not braked. 12 years old, so not the new 90mm ones. These brakes are standard for most Dutch-built VMs (Alleweder, Mango, Quest, Strada). Braking action on the VM is in general not good. It is just adequate. Velomobiel.nl now offers the 90mm SA drum brakes as an option on the Quest and the Strada. From what I read here, they (the 90mm brakes) are worth the extra cost.

 

[BrianMc]

You saw that SA drum brake on the low resolution video ?!

Can't you read it? It's as plain as the nose on your face when riding away from the camera!

Let this be a lesson to you: Never underestimate a scientists's powers of observation and deduction. :laughing:

Feel like Holmes explaining to Dr. Watson. I couldn't resist all the other Alleweder videos YouTube listed with yours. Some focussed in on the wheels so you could clearly read 'Sturmey Archer'. These hubs had the same spokes on one side and drum like volume on the inside, and almost for sure, the same manufacturer. Probability was high that yours were SA too. Power of fuzzy logic at work. Or is it fuzzy brain? Whatever. :thinking:

Yes, they are 70mm Sturmey Archer drum brakes on both front wheels. ... From what I read here, they (the 90mm brakes) are worth the extra cost.

Thanks. Thought you'd not have upgraded those yet. But you are quick.

What I hoped. Now need some out there awhile for the manufacturing to be tweaked, and quality maximized for minimal warranty issues. Maybe this fall.

In support AFAIK:
1. New design done in Taiwan.
2. Based on the original British design which is sound.
3. Without the dilapidated machinery and deteriorated quality production
4. With a company planning an array of products for this kind of use
5. Taiwanese striving for return to glory day SA reputation
6. A relatively easy retrofit to most bikes.
7. The generator version adds little extra cost.

So now awaiting reviews in use and after some kilometers. Older British-made ones would act up left in the rain like they are on Bakfiets. But the Shimano I80 is ugly (IMHO) and though beefed up, roller brakes have had a long break in and need the special grease servicing. Too little for too much work.

 

[1 what]

As mentioned in one of my above posts I'd been working on another tail light and the 2 objectives were to have a larger light source area and higher output.
It uses DX optics and 3x 1W red leds.
Its mounted in acrylic tube for side visibility and the unit is waterproof with all acrylic surfaces "welded".

I knew there was a reason I had a 14.4V and 4,400mAH battrey pack!

 

[rice rocket]

For those of you who have an aspherical lens for your flashlights, is there something we can coat the lens with to make it semi-frosted? Maybe even a spray paint? If you have a sandblaster, you could just blast a cheap $3 DX lens.

Then you can run almost any LED flashlight with a red emitter as a tail.

I currently have a Solarforce L2m w/ a Osram Diamond Dragon in red @ 1A (it's rated 160 some lumens @ 1.4A). Luminus also has the SST-90 in red too, which is good to something silly like 800 lumens.

 

[znomit]

For those of you who have an aspherical lens for your flashlights, is there something we can coat the lens with to make it semi-frosted? Maybe even a spray paint? If you have a sandblaster, you could just blast a cheap $3 DX lens.

Glad press'n'seal works ok and is removable.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/199140

 

[BrianMc]

A review of the summarized options (open for corrections, and editing).

Daytime comparisons of these lights would be fantastic but I doubt anyone with have two of these to compare. So we will take pics of any of these in daytime action showing them near and far if possible. Another idea would be to photgraph them alongside a car's tailights with and without brake lights and signal lights to get an idea of brightness. Angle shots would laso be nice.

The Dinotte 400L and the K-Lite are bright enough that their hot spot should be aimed at the ground maybe a car lenght back and let the top of the beam only, shine in motorists faces if directly behind. The power is to get a broad fan of light bright enough to carry a fair distance. The red spot on the ground also makes the cyclist in side view. Only the Nova Bull has appreciable direct side output other than from the patch of light thrown on the ground. Superstealths can be used, maybe even facing 45 degrees forward, as they are visible in daylight at the typical distances of intersections where you want to catch a driver's attention.

Nova Bull
If you don't have a 12-16 volt lighting system, the Nova Bull will not be a cheap option. It has eight modes, no bike seat post mounting system, though it looks easily adaptable to a rear rack. At $36-40 it may be a good deal for some. It has eight modes but they were not designed with a cyclist in mind so not the best according to one cyclist in a prior thread here. It does provide some side lighting. With three of the same LEDs as the Dinotte 140R at lower curent it has a more horizontal output of about the same intensity

Dinotte 140L R
The Dinotte 140LR appears to be a single Luxeon III Red-Orange driven at 1.4 A (about 4 W) and the output is likely close to 140 lumens after lens and normal heat losses. It is $120 without battery and charger, $150 with. Same LED as in 1 What'slight but beamier. More intense and beamier than Pe2er's.

Dinotte 400L R
Dinottte has a sale YMMV and this is likely a limited time offer so I'll state it is subject to change without notice.

The 400L red tailight with one 2-cell battery and charger is just under $200, with a 4-cell battery and charger, just over $220, and with no charger or battery but you must own a Dinotte battery and charger (customer, presumably warranty reasons with non-Dinotte batteries) just under $145. Includes seat post mount. (Now if a friend has a dinotte and you can do a battery....)


This is a two LED light. It has a 2.5 hour run time on two typical Li-Ion cells. This is about the consumption of Luxeon III Red Orange LEDs plus a driver. If that is what they are, the Luxeon II R/O are supposed to be about 190 lumens each before heat and lens losses, 380 total. They have the same thermal conductivity of 10 * C/W as the CREE XP-E Red-Orange, at 10 * C/W but with over twice the power consumption it runs hotter and will have about twice the loss in efficacy due to heat. Guessing 230-320 lumens out the back depending on temperature and how efficient the lens is and about 9.5 Watts power use. These LED's are discontinued by Phillips. Comes with a seat post mount. You can buy the headlight and tailight pair now for just under $344.


Ktronik K-Lite Battery powered tail light:
The Ktronik K-Lite battery powered kit is available in many forms at different prices (PM him). There is also a generator version. The battery version features his 20 mm ID light weight black anodized case with concentric status readout around the switch at the front (non output) end of the light or in remote switch. It uses 3 CREE XP-E Red-Orange bin ?. If it is the P2 Bin (67.2 lumen @350 mA bin), at max 700 mA, it has 1.9 X more output, or 128 lumens before losses. So 383 lumens total and 285-380 lumens depending on lens and temperature. It uses 58% as much power for 15% more light than the Dinotte 400L. If a less effective bin is used the differnece in output wil be less but the power use difference remains.

Customizing:
You can opt to use a buck puck or inexpensive 700 mA driver with or without modes and levels. A maxflex won't fit. If you use a Bflex in the K-Lite it has a 750 mA setting, not 700 mA. That will slightly overdrive the Red-Orange to about 2.4 Vf, and 6.7 more lumens each. The K-lite body looks up to handling the extra heat. The power use with Bflex at 750 mA is 6.2 watts and output is 300-400 lumens extrapolating the chart data. Half power (350 mA) is 150 lumens comparable output to the Dinotte 140LR.

You may also order a completley built light from Ktronik directly PM him.

Cutter's price for the K light kit with the Bflex is just under $190 US plus shipping. North American residents save by ordering the Bflex direct from Taskled. Going that route is about $172 plus shipping from Cutter. Exchange rates can change these prices daily. This does not include battery and charger.

DIY:
WE have the opportunity to design and build a light with side visibility like 1 what did. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=264640

The LuxeonIII is dead, and the latest RedOrange LED for the task is the CREE XP-E. Three XR-E Red-Orange P2's on a triple 20 mm MCPCB and 20 mm Lens, from Cutter is currently about $30 US plus shipping to the US. Driver, wire, cable, connector, case, heat sink, solder, Arctic Alumina and other supplies, extra. Adding a Bflex brings it to about $65. A Maxflex is another $5 and will need heat sinking. These are the best but not cheapest but offer great flexibily in setting up multi level outputs.

Rice Rocket's P60 host and XP-C Drop in. The post gives the SKU and bits. Module <$9 from DX, host $13, extension $5 at lighthound there will be other sources & prices, 2 18650 Tenergys plus charger $25-30? Aspheric lens to sand until it glows from $0 if you have one to $5 from surplushed and DX in the middle. Say $35-40 with shipping. DX says 900 lumens at 1 A. CREE says XP-C R2 Red-orange has max current of 350 mA and 56 lumens. Even on half power likely 500 mA, it is overdriven. Two flash modes where it will be happier. It looks good close in compared to SBSF. Over 10 hour run times on 1 A constant so at least a week commuting on flash mode. But if size is as important, or more important than intensity, then two with modified bezel fitted with a say a 40 mm + aspheric might do it for about $70 sahring the charger and batteries.


Anyone want to share their ideas or plans of past, present, or future builds/mods?


PS I took so long doing this up we have other LED candiadtes and a prototype from 1 What preceding this post. Thanks Guys!:thumbsup:

 

[BrianMc]

For those of you who have an aspherical lens for your flashlights, is there something we can coat the lens with to make it semi-frosted? Maybe even a spray paint? If you have a sandblaster, you could just blast a cheap $3 DX lens. Then you can run almost any LED flashlight with a red emitter as a tail.

DX has an adjustable aspheric and if defocused, you get a fairly difuse beam as wide as the adjustment allows. Not a bad approach.:thumbsup:

I currently have a Solarforce L2m w/ a Osram Diamond Dragon in red @ 1A (it's rated 160 some lumens @ 1.4A).

Love to see it in action. (Day.)

Luminus also has the SST-90 in red too, which is good to something silly like 800 lumens.

I wonder what its lumens/watt look like at something less than the 5 A or whatever max it has. :devil: Another post it looks like.

 

[rice rocket]

Found my spare 28mm DX optic, and sanded it with some 120 grit paper. Yeah, it's not ideal, but it allows for a good amount of dispersion. Sandblaster would be better. I took the pics w/o the bezel because I don't have the flat bezel in yet.

I have no daytime shots, because it's not daytime... But I have a PB Superflash, so you guys can kinda get a feel for it comparatively. Mounted on a Fenix Bike Mount on my seat stay.

With the bezel:

Head on:

Head on (underexposed):

30 deg off axis:

90 deg:

And 90 deg w/o the frosty optic:

 

[BrianMc]

Found my spare 28mm DX optic, and sanded it with some 120 grit paper. ...I have no daytime shots, because it's not daytime... But I have a PB Superflash, so you guys can kinda get a feel for it comparatively. Mounted on a Fenix Bike Mount on my seat stay. /QUOTE]

NOW I get it. The PBSF is good as a reference except in daytime video it it's on flash mode. Good idea.

The Red SST-90 would be good for someone who wants revenge on drivers who honk upset him at night 2 amp and 300 lumens to 6.5 and over 1000. The 79 lumens/watt is the efficacy of the XP-E at max currrent, and they are lots cheaper.

 

[BrianMc]

As mentioned in one of my above posts I'd been working on another tail light and the 2 objectives were to have a larger light source area and higher output. .... I knew there was a reason I had a 14.4V and 4,400mAH battrey pack!

Interesting ideas there. Looking forward to day shots. What about heat? The 1 watts can handle being sealed up?

 

[rice rocket]

NOW I get it. The PBSF is good as a reference except in daytime video it it's on flash mode. Good idea.

Yeah, the optic is only there to protrude past the crown/bezel. I guess you could even use the Fenix dildo diffusers, if you want extra side lighting, but it looks ridiculous.

I'm not sure how much visibility you're gonna get in the daytime in red. Even tail lights on cars from afar aren't really that great in the daytime. If you choose an emitter w/ a high wavelength and edge it towards orange, it might be more effective.

The Red SST-90 would be good for someone who wants revenge on drivers who honk upset him at night 2 amp and 300 lumens to 6.5 and over 1000. The 79 lumens/watt is the efficacy of the XP-E at max currrent, and they are lots cheaper.

Haha, with a remote switch? Not a bad idea.

 

[BrianMc]

Yeah, the optic is only there to protrude past the crown/bezel. I guess you could even use the Fenix dildo diffusers, if you want extra side lighting, but it looks ridiculous.

You also grab light you want at say +/-60 degrees to shove it at out at +/- 80 degrees.

I'm not sure how much visibility you're gonna get in the daytime in red. Even tail lights on cars from afar aren't really that great in the daytime. If you choose an emitter w/ a high wavelength and edge it towards orange, it might be more effective.

I don't want tailights. I want BRAKE lights. Bright enough you turn them to a lower night setting to avoid law enforcement entanglements. And no I also have a yellow strobe so red isn't sacred. Blue is out. White is out. Green is OK but really weird.

In the XR-E's the amber has a number of drawbacks compared to Red-orange, especially efficacy. The red-orange are also better than red that way. So they are not really red and come close to 100 lumens per watt at 350 mA. Maybe our eyes sensitivity to yellow outweigh the difference. Anybody knoew of data on our color acuity across the yellow red part of the spectrum? The yellow green vest shows better than the flourescent orange one.

Anyone have equal output XP-E's with the same optics in amber, red-orange, and red? We'd have to assume the camera and our monitors didn't mess it up so it isn't as simple as photographing them and loading them up. You need to note differences and see if they turn up in the recording fairly accurately and report how they didn't hold true if they didn't.

Haha, with a remote switch? Not a bad idea.

The real advantage is their tremendous output. Almost all of it is within 60 degrees, 16 degrees is FWHM! Lazer like! Using them all the time at 1/6 max is a waste. Fortunately spreading a tight beam is WAY easier than tightening a wide one like the XP-G.

6.5 amp at 2.2 Vf or something like that. Need short fat wires and very good battery connections and high discharge rate cells. Of course you could put three or four in series to get the battery voltage and discharge rates closer. At something like $40 each. 1 amp and 300 lumens to 6.5 and 3000! Can you see me NOW?

 

[1 what]

I'm about to get very busy for a couple of weeks so daytime photos might be some time off. I'll do some beside my car tail light when I get the chance.
Re the heat.
For the 3 led model the drive current is a square wave at 2 Hz with a 10% duty cycle and the forward current is 50% of max. They don't get hot at all.
They are plenty bright enough and I was after a larger light source area as much as a bright light. It's very impressive how much brighter a larger light source looks at a distance.
I'll look forward to catching up with you all in a couple of weeks and post photos then.

 

[Offroad'Bent]

Found my spare 28mm DX optic, and sanded it with some 120 grit paper. Yeah, it's not ideal, but it allows for a good amount of dispersion. Sandblaster would be better. I took the pics w/o the bezel because I don't have the flat bezel in yet.

I have no daytime shots, because it's not daytime... But I have a PB Superflash, so you guys can kinda get a feel for it comparatively. Mounted on a Fenix Bike Mount on my seat stay.

With the bezel:

I really like this. Simple, self-contained.

Is there a red single XP-E flashlight like this on the market with a strobe mode?
Easy enough to have a PB Superflash attached to the back of a helmet or something to complement a narrow-beam eyeburner for daylight visibility.