Duracell Ion Core AA & AAA

[UnknownVT]

Have you tried doing a break in?

Normally if the cell is being discharged to 0.9volts it wont harm it but if the camera is shutting off due to low battery and then attempt to discharge it with a charger the cycle life can be reduced. Also it may be possible that the cells may be older than 5 years. They may have been on the shelf for 3 or more years initially. I dont have any issues with my Duracell Ion Cores or my AAA Eneloop Pros. I noticed that when they get discharged they wont recover past 1.1volts. Regular Eneloops will recover to 1.2 volts.

Thank you again for that input - so although discharging near empty battery may seem "foolish" - can it really be the cause of 95% loss in life?
as posted before:

they are now all HIGH (internal resistance) in the Maha/PowerEX MH-C9000 and won't even discharge in that charger.

when the Maha/PowerEX C9000 displays HIGH the only operation available is discharge -and that shows DONE momentarily -
in other words these 6 Ion-Core AA are kaput, dead, gone to see their maker, pushing up the daisies - as far as the Maha/PowerEX C9000 is concerned, I canNOT do anything in that charger...

The Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 does not seem to have a break-in cycle.

Just a thought - my seemingly foolish routine, is kind of like a "Refresh" cycle for every use of the battery -
Maha/PowerEX C9000 manual -

Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 manual -

Thanks.

I might....and state might be having issues with a Duraloop pro in my SC5W. Twice it was expectantly dead with drained battery. Only the very initial stages for investigation so nothing is ruled out.

Thanks for that input - just to confirm - these are the Duracell Ion-Core AA?
please let us know of any developments in your investigation?

Thank you,

 

[xxo]

My guess is over-discharge is the cause. I'm thinking once your recorder depleted the cells, they probably had some time for their Voltage to recover a bit and then the charger would discharge them some more when they were already dead?



By any chance do you know the Voltage of of the cells when the recorder stops working?

 

[UnknownVT]

My guess is over-discharge is the cause. I'm thinking once your recorder depleted the cells, they probably had some time for their Voltage to recover a bit and then the charger would discharge them some more when they were already dead?

By any chance do you know the Voltage of of the cells when the recorder stops working?

Thank you - good thought - I had thought of that too.

Unfortunately I do not know at what voltage the recorder shuts down -
but the only mitigation is when I do go to discharge the voltages were always reasonable - ie: definitely above 1.09 volt
(agreed, the batteries may have recovered their voltages) but they have always discharged by about 150-300mA.

The Opus BT-CT3100 v2.1 manual on Discharge Mode -

one of the critiques of the Opus is the trickle charge applied once 0.90V is reached -
in this one case that seems to show/guarantee that the batteries had never been below 0.90V.

[note: I have had one single Ion-Core AA (not these) show 0mAh on discharge - from being discovered "empty" in a flashlight -
so I am aware of, and am on the lookout for that - FWIW - that Ion-Core AA still seems to be fine - for now]

Thanks,

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Vincent,

Interesting...

I have a set of the original Eneloop cells. I use them in a camera that rarely gets used. Recently I noticed that a couple of the cells (2 in use and 2 as a back up) developed higher resistance.

My thought is that this has something to do with the low self discharge chemistry. There is a pacification layer that forms and my thought is that the balance has gotten a little off.

I am in the middle of this study so I don't know how well it will work out.

I charged the cells. Then discharged them. I noticed something like 300 - 600 mAh upon discharging at 200 mA in the C-9000.

This sucks...

I then put each cell into a single cell light, turned it on, and removed the cell the next day after the light had gone out. This is a deep discharge.

I then ran a Break-In and noticed that the capacity was back in the 1800 - 1900 mAh range. The next step was to do a full charge (no cells exhibited high internal resistance this time) followed by a discharge cycle.

I still have good capacity.

The next step is to put them back into the camera and see if the low self discharge part is still functional.

I probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 - 100 cycles on these cells. I usually give them a discharge/charge cycle every 6 months and every couple of years put them through the Break-In cycle.

I am surprised that my plan actually showed some improvement but time will tell if it actually restored the cells to their normal functionality.

Tom

 

[UnknownVT]

I have a set of the original Eneloop cells. I use them in a camera that rarely gets used. Recently I noticed that a couple of the cells (2 in use and 2 as a back up) developed higher resistance.

My thought is that this has something to do with the low self discharge chemistry. There is a pacification layer that forms and my thought is that the balance has gotten a little off.

I charged the cells. Then discharged them. I noticed something like 300 - 600 mAh upon discharging at 200 mA in the C-9000.

This sucks...

I then put each cell into a single cell light, turned it on, and removed the cell the next day after the light had gone out. This is a deep discharge.

I then ran a Break-In and noticed that the capacity was back in the 1800 - 1900 mAh range. The next step was to do a full charge (no cells exhibited high internal resistance this time) followed by a discharge cycle.

I still have good capacity.

The next step is to put them back into the camera and see if the low self discharge part is still functional.

I probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 - 100 cycles on these cells. I usually give them a discharge/charge cycle every 6 months and every couple of years put them through the Break-In cycle.

I am surprised that my plan actually showed some improvement but time will tell if it actually restored the cells to their normal functionality.

Thank you so much Tom/SilverFox. Great input.

Since these 6 Ion-Core AA were more or less kaput (C-9000 reads HIGH and won't do anything with them - even the Discharge just goes to "DONE")

I decided to try a manual refresh in the Opus BT-C31000 -
discharge at 0.2C or C/5 (=500mA) - this showed all the cells had "capacity" of well over 2000mAh -
but the internal resistance when measured at the discharged state dropped to about 250 milliohms -
not good, but a lot better than the 500-800 range.

So I am charging them up 3 at a time at 1500mA the closest setting to C/2 in the Opus -
(I have 1.5 Opus chargers - one fully working with 2 slots that can charge at 1500mA, and another where slot #1 does not work properly - so only one slot that can charge above 1000mA)
first three took in about 2500mAh - second 3 are still charging.

I'll check the internal resistance at fully charged, but when they've rested overnight.

Then I'll probably try the deep discharge for a pair and see if that will improve matters.

Thank you for that interesting input.

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Thank you again for that input - so although discharging near empty battery may seem "foolish" - can it really be the cause of 95% loss in life?
as posted before:

when the Maha/PowerEX C9000 displays HIGH the only operation available is discharge -and that shows DONE momentarily -
in other words these 6 Ion-Core AA are kaput, dead, gone to see their maker, pushing up the daisies - as far as the Maha/PowerEX C9000 is concerned, I canNOT do anything in that charger...

The Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 does not seem to have a break-in cycle.

Just a thought - my seemingly foolish routine, is kind of like a "Refresh" cycle for every use of the battery -
Maha/PowerEX C9000 manual -

Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 manual -

Thanks.



Thanks for that input - just to confirm - these are the Duracell Ion-Core AA?
please let us know of any developments in your investigation?

Thank you,

Thank you - good thought - I had thought of that too.

Unfortunately I do not know at what voltage the recorder shuts down -
but the only mitigation is when I do go to discharge the voltages were always reasonable - ie: definitely above 1.09 volt
(agreed, the batteries may have recovered their voltages) but they have always discharged by about 150-300mA.

The Opus BT-CT3100 v2.1 manual on Discharge Mode -

one of the critiques of the Opus is the trickle charge applied once 0.90V is reached -
in this one case that seems to show/guarantee that the batteries had never been below 0.90V.

[note: I have had one single Ion-Core AA (not these) show 0mAh on discharge - from being discovered "empty" in a flashlight -
so I am aware of, and am on the lookout for that - FWIW - that Ion-Core AA still seems to be fine - for now]

Thanks,

It could be a combination of factors, though discharging an already dead battery will shorten its life, which is actually over discharging the cell.


The next time you run these cells in your camera pull them out and wait a couple of hours. Record the voltage. You can also check the voltage when you pull them out. Anything under 1.2volts (resting charge) would be considered depleted. The lower that voltage is the less cycles or the more problems you'll have from the cells in the future. It also means you are draining the cells completely with the camera and putting another discharge further kills the cycles on the cell. Ironically if the cell reads higher than 1.2 volts then thats a pretty good sign the cells have HIGH IR. Higher the voltages the worse IR the cells have.

Another question, do you automatically recharge the cells when they have been dishcharged or do you wait? Reason is that if you let the cells recover for a couple of hours it may help to stabilize the cells to cool off and rest before you recharge them. And it may be the reason the C 9000 has a cooling off period in between charge/discharge cycles.

 

[UnknownVT]

It could be a combination of factors, though discharging an already dead battery will shorten its life, which is actually over discharging the cell.

The next time you run these cells in your camera pull them out and wait a couple of hours. Record the voltage. You can also check the voltage when you pull them out. Anything under 1.2volts (resting charge) would be considered depleted. The lower that voltage is the less cycles or the more problems you'll have from the cells in the future. It also means you are draining the cells completely with the camera and putting another discharge further kills the cycles on the cell. Ironically if the cell reads higher than 1.2 volts then thats a pretty good sign the cells have HIGH IR. Higher the voltages the worse IR the cells have.

Thank you.

I'll accept that -
I can understand what I was doing reducing the life by say 10-20% - but 95%?
but I'll bow to your authoritative input.

Another question, do you automatically recharge the cells when they have been dishcharged or do you wait? Reason is that if you let the cells recover for a couple of hours it may help to stabilize the cells to cool off and rest before you recharge them. And it may be the reason the C 9000 has a cooling off period in between charge/discharge cycles.

Always REST between discharge and charge as posted -

I thought my routine ought prolong the life of these batteries -

Use until the recorder shuts down -
some hours after I get home -
discharge remainder in Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 at 500mA (C/5 or 20% C) (discharge remainder figure was always in the 150-300mAh - has never been 0)
leave overnight -
charge at 1500mA until full (total to charge always around ~2500-2670mAh).

Thank you

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Oh one last thing, id try to charge them around 700-1000mah.

If you fully discharge the cells once or twice it wont hurt them that much but if you're doing that all the time the capacity of the cells may drop. It also will increase the IR quicker. But as I said before it may just be a contributing factor. I dont think putting 1500ma into a dead battery would be good for it. I had a few cells cook from higher current rates when they were fully discharged. They were being charged at 500ma which they normally take but they were deeply discharged. The same cells wont do that at 500ma when they still have about 20% left in the cells.

 

[TinderBox (UK)]

Has anybody tried the old freezing nimh battery`s for 24 hours trick, If the battery capacity will not improve after a few charge/discharge cycles even a break-in it`s ready to go in the recycling bin, I had some 5000mah C cells that were only giving 1800mah, I did the freeze trick (I discharged the battery before freezing) and then after a charge/discharge/charge cycle they were giving approx 4000mah.

Snake-Oil??

Anybody got an opinion?

John.

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Has anybody tried the old freezing nimh battery`s for 24 hours trick, If the battery capacity will not improve after a few charge/discharge cycles even a break-in it`s ready to go in the recycling bin, I had some 5000mah C cells that were only giving 1800mah, I did the freeze trick (I discharged the battery before freezing) and then after a charge/discharge/charge cycle they were giving approx 4000mah.

Snake-Oil??

Anybody got an opinion?

John.

I've tried that and the cells IR got worse.

I'm also noticing cells with higher capacities often go bad quicker than cells that have lower capacity such as regular Eneloops. Actually just today i noticed one of my Enercells i got in 2013 (dated Aug 2011) is giving me 100% IR, the other one is about 80% and the 100% one is showing 2.3v in the C9000. They got intermittent usage. The cells are nearly 5 years old. I also have 2 other Enercells that are only around 1.6v and dated 2013. If they start exhibiting signs of high IR in a couple of years it may be that the higher capacities don't last very long. Duracell Ion Core advertises that they are guaranteed to last 5 years. My guess is that's with or without usage.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Vincent,

After 4 days I ran my cells through a discharge/charge cycle and they seem to be back to normal. Now I will let them go longer and see what happens.

Tom

 

[UnknownVT]

After 4 days I ran my cells through a discharge/charge cycle and they seem to be back to normal. Now I will let them go longer and see what happens.

Thanks Tom/SilverFox.

I tried the deep discharge - and that actually made the internal resistance Higher - so that didn't work for my cells.

I even tried the freeze for 24 hours from discharged state - and that also made the internal resistance higher, just as MidnightDistortions also found:

I've tried that and the cells IR got worse.

I'm also noticing cells with higher capacities often go bad quicker than cells that have lower capacity such as regular Eneloops. Actually just today i noticed one of my Enercells i got in 2013 (dated Aug 2011) is giving me 100% IR, the other one is about 80% and the 100% one is showing 2.3v in the C9000. They got intermittent usage. The cells are nearly 5 years old. I also have 2 other Enercells that are only around 1.6v and dated 2013. If they start exhibiting signs of high IR in a couple of years it may be that the higher capacities don't last very long. Duracell Ion Core advertises that they are guaranteed to last 5 years. My guess is that's with or without usage.

Agreed, the higher the capacity - the more the battery makers are trying cram into a finite space.
So things like separators etc are thinner and more fragile - so the "ultra" high capacity cells are more prone to damage, less forgiving of abuse.

I guess these Duracell Ion-Core AA (re-badged Eneloop XX/Pro) are simply not as resilient as regular Eneloops -
with hindsight a rated life of 400 (Ion-Core) or 500 (Eneloop XX) cycles verses the 1800-2100 cycles of the regular Eneloops should have given me a clue...

It is ironic, in doing what I thought was "good" for the battery -

I thought my routine ought prolong the life of these batteries -

Use until the recorder shuts down -
some hours after I get home -
discharge remainder in Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 at 500mA (C/5 or 20% C) (discharge remainder figure was always in the 150-300mAh - has never been 0)
leave overnight -
charge at 1500mA until full (total to charge always around ~2500-2670mAh).

Before use or when I set to carry a pair as spare - top-up charge at 1500mA until charger says Full (usually about 150-300mAh).

I had possibly damaged and shortened the life-cycle by 95%!!!

Thanks all for your input - I'll just use the remaining Ion-Core AA -
count approx hours use and change before the recorder shuts down
(although I am pretty sure the recorder does not take cells to unsafe low levels - they are in series)
and charge after rest without any additional discharge.

Thanks all for your input.

 

[MidnightDistortions]

There may be some kind of date code on those Ion Core cells. I don't know how the older ones read but mine has 13 or 14 in the beginning I think which represents 2013 or 2014. I dont have the cells with me at the moment but part of the reason your cells may have high IR is age. Discharging the cells twice could just be that it accelerated the IR a bit. But again I have 2 Enercells from 2011 that one cell is 100% and then other cell jumped to about 93% high IR when I performed a break in. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and get new cells as they can just crap out on you regardless what you do. The high capacity cells degrade fast.

 

[UserName]

Does anyone know if the current "ion core" AA and AAA are still believed to be the same as eneloop pros?

I bought a pack of each the other day, and noticed they are now labeled at 2500mah (vs 2400) for the AA and 850mah (vs 800) for the AAA. Packaging and labeling looks the same. Cells, and the card in the package both said made in Japan. It's vaguely reminiscent of back in the day when duracell had "duraloops" available at 1900mah, and regular non-LSD cells at 2500 mah. The packaging back then looked almost the same. This are labled as precharged on the card, and "stay charged" on the cell itself.

 

[RI Chevy]

I believe you are correct. They are Eneloop Pro's.
Also less times for recharging as well.

 

[UnknownVT]

Does anyone know if the current "ion core" AA and AAA are still believed to be the same as eneloop pros?

I bought a pack of each the other day, and noticed they are now labeled at 2500mah (vs 2400) for the AA and 850mah (vs 800) for the AAA. Packaging and labeling looks the same. Cells, and the card in the package both said made in Japan. It's vaguely reminiscent of back in the day when duracell had "duraloops" available at 1900mah, and regular non-LSD cells at 2500 mah. The packaging back then looked almost the same. This are labled as precharged on the card, and "stay charged" on the cell itself.

I believe you are correct. They are Eneloop Pro's.
Also less times for recharging as well.

The consensus so far -

Ion-Core AAs are Eneloop Pro/XX

Ion-Core AAAs are regular plain eneloops -
the 850mAh shows they are the latest versions.
(eneloop Pro AAA are 950mAh)