Help me Understand Why SureFire are so Expensive

[razor7]

Stitch, it really isnt nice to make personal attacks on anyone..

and Working Children really isnt all that bad. Like he said, the alternative is the streets, with no money. Not everywhere in the world is like in the US. people work for money, for food, the alternative being no food at all. Child Labour in terms of slavery is bad, but you have to see the big picture, they wouldnt have money otherwise anyway. is it good? no, perfect? far from, but sometimes unavoidable. if you recall, even in the US at one point in history, there would have been child labour. after thinking about it, i would be happy if fenix had children working in thier factories, because im sure they would treat them right, meaning that these poor kids would have a source of income, and a good working environment.Most of these kids would be to poor to afford education, so i guess this is a better alternative then living in the steets.

anyway this is the last thing i will say here, thank you to those who have given constructive and well thought out feedback. :wave:

Crenshaw

I would have to agree. It is sad that most kids these days expect everything to be given to them by mommy and daddy, and waste so much time doing nothing constructive with their lives. Even sadder that so many parents these days let this happen. I think the greatest cause of decline in modern society was the industrial revolution, causing parents to leave home to work in factories or for big business. Ended the era where most families ran local businesses, and their children learned their trade and skills from that. I don't agree that kids should be working in sweat shops, but should be allowed to work in a safe environment to develop good work ethics and skills from an early age.

 

[ultimaonliner]

While China's GDP is greater than Canada or Australia, the per capita income is actually extremely low. The average life and availability of economic opportunities is exceedingly bad by any measure.

It's quite easy for a citizen of a wealthy country (like the U.S.) to point fingers at nations where monthly incomes may barely exceed $20.

Wages have been increasing dramatically in China, and I do not know the latest figures, but I remember that they may have increased to almost 75 cents per hour. These are for adults. (Don't quote me on the exact number, but the general idea is that it is far below that of the U.S.)

You always do that crenshaw, so don't preach on me. Nowonder you're being called a hypocrite.


Children should belong to schools, not streets or factories. If China is really concerned for it's people and children, with all their wealth they should have made it to a point that at least every child should be in school. You see China is far wealthier that most of the non third world countries, let's say Canada and Australia, but do we see child laborers in both of the countries? NO. But, why do they allow child laborers...Cheap labor its more money for them. It's all about the government there. Tell that to any child laborers there and I'm 100% sure they would tell you that they rather be studying in schools than working in factories. Its good to train kids early in life for working, but standing there at a factory working for 8 to 10 hours a day is far different from training.



Man you would say anything just so you can have the last word huh? Now I really see what kind of a person you are, great morals there kid. You just degraded yourself my friend.

Its easy for you to say that since you can enjoy your freedom and enjoy the benefit of you parents hard earned money, your mom still buys you flashlights after all. I bet any Chinese kid working hard at a factory right now would exchange life with you with out thinking twice.

 

[xcel730]

PentagonLught, Streamlight, and other American made flashlights are also quite "expensive" when compared to their Asian counterparts. And yet we don't see people complain about that. Its make you think what agendas do this people have in their mind, when they always criticize SF.

Stitch, I'm the OP and I've been following this thread closely. I know you have strong opinions in many matters, but there's really no need to put others' opinions down and call people names. That's not very nice. :shakehead You may not think so, but even your comment about "it makes you think what agendas do these people have in their mind when they always criticize SF" have negative connotations. Your next post may be, "I wasn't referring to you. Did I say your name, etc", but that's not the point.

As I've already indicated, I'm just a newbie getting to know more about SF flashlights and trying to get a sense of whether the price is because of status symbol (i.e., someone owning a Rolex) or some other factors. As a newbie, I have never heard of PentagonLight nor Insight before this thread. It may seem obvious to you, but for someone who don't have the experience with flashlights, it would be confusing for them to figure out why one flashlight with all these modes and much higher lumens rating and much higher runtime cost much less than SF ... and from pictures they both look well-constructed. I can assure you that I have no hidden agenda and from my original post, I made it clear that I am not criticizing SF in any shape or form. If the answer was simply, "because it makes me feel good owning an SF", that's fine for me. I've own several fine knives that are above $500 price mark and have watches that are a few thousand dollars. My friends think I'm crazy because they don't understand. To them, a $50 knife is already too expensive, but that's because they don't know anything about the blade material, heat treatment, handle materials, etc. To them, a 440a is the same as S30V.
Similarly, the expensive watches actually tells time worst than a $100 Casio Pathfinder (and it doesn't even have compass, alarm, stopwatch, altimeter, and such).

As a matter of fact, it is from this thread an constructive feedback from many other posters, that got me to pull the trigger and purchased the E2L (dual 3/60 lms) yesterday ... and I already received it today :twothumbs, thanks BatteryJunction!!! So now that I own the Fenix L2D and SF E2L ... I can say, I like them both for different reasons (hope this would not cause another war). I like L2D because it's thinner, brighter, and have more modes. Even though my newly acquired SL E2L is not as bright, I still like it a lot. It's built like a tank and I'm sure if I run my truck over it (accidentally of course), it will still work. It is very nicely made and I appreciate the quality. I think 60 lumens is fine for what I intend for this flashlight for (and I'm sure I could buy replacement heads if SF comes out with new ones).

 

[xcel730]

While China's GDP is greater than Canada or Australia, the per capita income is actually extremely low. The average life and availability of economic opportunities is exceedingly bad by any measure.

It's quite easy for a citizen of a wealthy country (like the U.S.) to point fingers at nations where monthly incomes may barely exceed $20.

Wages have been increasing dramatically in China, and I do not know the latest figures, but I remember that they may have increased to almost 75 cents per hour. These are for adults. (Don't quote me on the exact number, but the general idea is that it is far below that of the U.S.)

I agree on the comment. Even in the US, the average domestic income per household is really skewed. The east and west coast tend to have much higher standards of living than anywhere else in the US. I've been to some 4-stars hotels in the coast that cost $500 a night and I've been to some hotels in the midwest and south that cost $70 a night. That's HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!

 

[adamlau]

R&D, build quality and customer and warranty support services. Why is Polarion so expensive? Same reasons.

 

[neoseikan]

As a producer in China, I don't know how Fenix works much,
But for me, there is a scene different with some one's image.
Now we have a small lab, but in it, there are the best young guys in best academic places in China. We design circuits, reflector curves, and the body.
We also buy parts from other factories, but to get things better, we choose those most reliable company as our partner.
In CNC shops, they should have best experienced workers, or the expensive machine will be a waste. I saw some young people in there, they are apprentices. But only educated boys or girls, at least graduated from high school, will have the chance to be apprentices in CNC shops. We hope all the young Chinese could grasp their chance to learn more, to have a better life.
The problem is, in many areas, there is not enough working opportunity like these, therefore, there won't be a clear future for young people in there. There also won't be a reason for those poor families to support their children's education.
China is big, and the way is too far for many families.
That's the reason for slave workers and children labors.

 

[GPB]

Stitch: Thanks for backing me up with your post. In my "idiotic post" I had said:

This isn't an issue for an individual company to deal with, this is a regulatory issue for the government


and in your post you said:

If China is really concerned for it's people and children, with all their wealth they should have made it to a point that at least every child should be in school. You see China is far wealthier that most of the non third world countries, let's say Canada and Australia, but do we see child laborers in both of the countries? NO. But, why do they allow child laborers...Cheap labor its more money for them. It's all about the government there.


If the practice is leglally and socially acceptable in an area, then its going to happen whether you buy their products or not. Lets say there is a company that employs kids and you boycott them. Lets say you get all your friends to boycott them ( lets assume for a minute that you have lots of friends )

Scenario #1: The company goes out of business.
Do you think the kids will all of a sudden have an epiphany and go enroll in the local school ?!?!? No...they will go to the factory down the street for less pay because unemployment rates in that area just skyrocketted when the factory closed.

Scenario #2: Company management sees that child labor is hurting its profits and hires only adults. It fires the kids and hires adults.....well now the laid off kids go take the jobs that the adults just left, we have a shifting of the labor force, and a probably productivity decline until the labor market stabilizes.

Either way...kids are still working because the society and the government condone the practice.

So I don't want my kid to work in a factory, and I'm grateful that I live in a country that values education and children, but I'm not going to stop buying everything made in China because they are employing practices that we find offensive. Our country built its wealth in ways that seem offensive to the current generation, so it seems pretty ironic that everyone gets bent that China is doing it as well.

 

[Stereodude]

Most of the hondas and toyotas you are referring to are still made here, you do know that they have factories here right?

Yeah, that must be why their quality is so good... Because they're made in the US.

In reality the quality of their cars has gone down hill. First when they started building cars in the US, and then again when they started designing unique models exclusively for the US market. :sick2:

 

[fxstsb]

Quality, made in the USA.

 

[Marduke]

How has this thread not been closed yet???

 

[Spotpuff]

This thread has at times gotten really OT. I don't see why people can't just like what they like, be willing to pay for what they want, and let everyone else just have their own opinion without the ad hominem attacks and generalizations.

 

[skyline_man]

They aren't in the same league pretty pointless comparison. If Fenix were so good and in the same league it would cost more than $75.

The TK10 not in the same league? Even when it is brighter, more efficient and just as well made? I fail to see the justification.

 

[greenstuffs]

The problem of China is that it's development is not widespread or equal throughout the country, you'll see Skyscrapers in Shanghai but again you will see houses in the same city that don't have running water.

Go a little farther away from the big cities to the rural areas and you can still see agriculture in the traditional way with the mule and the plow. Of course people will have to work to be able to make a living and kids are no exception. The problem is that factories go to the villages recruit kids or anyone willing to work and take them to the factories near the city with a promise to make a better living. They end up living stacked in the factories owners apartments in conditions of 8 people in a room and things such as working 14 hrs a day 6-7 days a week.

The problem is the greed of the owners as well as the corruption and the politics for letting it happen. Of course people around the world is guilty for ever wanting cheaper and cheaper commodities.

So I don't want my kid to work in a factory, and I'm grateful that I live in a country that values education and children, but I'm not going to stop buying everything made in China because they are employing practices that we find offensive. Our country built its wealth in ways that seem offensive to the current generation, so it seems pretty ironic that everyone gets bent that China is doing it as well.

 

[BabyDoc]

The TK10 not in the same league? Even when it is brighter, more efficient and just as well made? I fail to see the justification.

No, IMO, the TK10 is not in the same league. How much research and development went into making the TK10? Not much. It is a redressed version of the T1, coming out only months after the not so well thought out T1 (clips that scratch, front heavy steel bezel). Sure, Fenix was responsive to the complaints about the T1, but shouldn't they have figured out the correct design to begin with. SureFire spends lots more money on research and trials before releasing a new light. Their new designs last for years, not months.

Furthermore, brightness alone does NOT determine quality. Besides build quality, and proven durability, color rendition, shape of the beam, abscence of artificacts, throw, and spread are also important. No one design fits all needs. SureFire lights are each designed for a special need. Their catalog of lights is enormous. Fenix, on the other hand, has 2 basic models (their Tactical T1/T10 series, and their multimode L1D, P2D, LOD, P1D, P2D, P3D series). All of the latter lights have similar beams, slight color variations, and similar interfaces. The major difference between the later lights is whether it has a clicky or not, or what batteries it allows you to use. Fenix "updates" these models with the latest emitters even if the upgrade isn't an improvement in every respect. For example, the upgrade from the Rebel emitter to the Q5 was at the expense of color rendition. SureFire hasn't been quick to jump on the Q5 bandwaggon. Beam and color rendition seem to be a higher priority than just more lumens. When SureFire does "catch up", they will be ahead. I will bet, for example, when the optimus is released, it will do it all -more lumens as well as better color rendition. We'll see.

 

[mighty82]

This is the angriest thread i have seen on this forum. I have given up on trying to tell this people that good quality flashligts other than surefires exists. Even better ones. I have seen no proof that surefire have better quality than.. lets say fenix.. I have seen people go through tailswitch after tailswitch on surefire lights, just like any other brand, if not even worse. They will just have to figure it out for themselves.

I quote.. "They aren't in the same league pretty pointless comparison. If Fenix were so good and in the same league it would cost more than $75."

This is a good example on why people think they are better than anything else combined. The power of the mind, you know, expensive placebo works better than cheap placebo

 

[skyline_man]

No, IMO, the TK10 is not in the same league. How much research and development went into making the TK10? Not much. It is a redressed version of the T1, coming out only months after the not so well thought out T1 (clips that scratch, front heavy steel bezel). Sure, Fenix was responsive to the complaints about the T1, but shouldn't they have figured out the correct design to begin with.

I agree with you about the Fenix T1, but the TK10 is a different light and addresses the problems that the T1 has. So what if it took Fenix a few months to design the TK10, so long as they got it right? It's just a flashlight we're talking about here - not some state of the art military nuclear bomb that requires months or years of R & D!

Furthermore, brightness alone does NOT determine quality. Besides build quality, and proven durability, color rendition, shape of the beam, abscence of artificacts, throw, and spread are also important. No one design fits all needs.

From my knowledge, not all LED Surefire lights have perfect colour rendition. It's all part of the lottery. whether it's Fenix, nitecore, wolf-eyes or Surefire etc, they all get their LED's from one source.
What's wrong with the beam shape of the TK10? Some say that it's one of the best in terms of throw and spread. Surely up to par or surpasses a similar Surefire.
So from collected information we can assume that the TK10 is better than a similar Surefire in output, runtime, beam pattern and price. Is equal with the Surefire in durability. But is beaten by the Surefire in terms of construction and aesthetic appeal. If you give all points equal weighing, wouldn't the TK10 come out as the winner and as the "better" light?

 

[js]

OK everyone, that is ENOUGH discussion of China and child labor. Any more and I will close this thread. Period. Take that part of the discussion to CPFU if anyone would like to continue it. This forum is for discussion of LED flashlights. Obviously, some amount of tangential subjects will come up, as there are many connections and relevances. But this has gone too far.

Now, that said, I'd like to get up on a soap box and point out what--in my opinion--is inflammatory posting style. But for the record, I think this thread went along pretty well for the most part, given the topic. OK. Here are three very simple, very quick rules of thumb that in my opinion help avoid flame wars:

1. Disagree with the position, but do NOT attack the poster or the poster's opinion:

For example, this is TOTALLY unacceptable:

Man, as much as I want to comment on your idiotic post, I will just let your post speak on what kind of a human being you are... what a total waste of life. I hope your mother is proud of you.

If this person had really decided not to comment, then he wouldn't have commented. It is really bad form to call a post "idiotic" or to say that one of our members is "a total waste of life". If someone really feels this way about another, and needs a forum to vent this sort of thing, The Mat in CPFU is the appropriate place, but NOT HERE.

If you consider a post idiotic, or a position unethical, then it's fine to make your case and show why this is so. It is not fine to just baldly make ad hominem attacks.

2. Don't play moderator. Not on TV, not here, not anywhere else. If you think someone's conduct is out of line, report it. Just please skip the "You're being mean". "OH YEAH? Well you started it." And so on. Don't pass moral or ethical judgement on another persons conduct in a post. Just skip that part and report it to a moderator if it is truly out of line.

3. Try to maintain respect for the person even if you can't respect that persons views and opinions. If you can't manage that, then it's best to steer clear of him or her.

So, there it is. My suggestions. Take them or leave them. But I'll be watching this thread closely from now on, so please try to bring this discussion back on track, or just let it die. Either way is fine with me.

THIS IS THE FIRST, LAST, AND ONLY WARNING.

 

[Stereodude]

This is a good example on why people think they are better than anything else combined. The power of the mind, you know, expensive placebo works better than cheap placebo

Here's an article about a study on that very thing.

 

[marinemaster]

We all been there.....when your number of posts are around 500 or so you WILL understand what Surefire is all about.....until then save your money....

 

[Handlobraesing]

While on the topic of Child labor and Fenix, it makes me wonder if their factory meets the same environmental and waste standards that US factories do.