Morelite
Flashlight Enthusiast
What would really be nice to have available is a AA (14500) that is a 3.0v Lithium primary just like the CR123 but in a AA size. I know Lisun made them a few years ago but I haven't seen them for awhile.
Lithium 1.5v rechargeable batteries... why not?
- Thread starter compasillo
- Start date
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Re: for a battery like
not everything must be expensive to be good, but, of course, most crappy things are the cheapo ones
but we must imagine that a big company can make something good and cheap.
well, keeping the DX example, a good charger (simple CC/CV charger that end at 4.2v, nothing else) can be found for 13$ free globe shipping. as is 2 slots only, 2 of them is still cheaper than a sony BCG-34HRMF i bought locally. even as this cheap, it can charge amazingly.
i pointed a protected cell just because they already have a circuit on it (cheap, of course). obviously, when we imagine a circuit on battery to stepdown voltage, we imagine one that is capable of do a cut-off "decently". as aim a average Joe, i don´t consider everything that is cheap, a danger, cause everything i have is the cheapo version, and all works fine, including protection circuit in my trustfires from DX
yes, like everything that have li-ion on it. no matter if is a nokia cell phone, or sony laptopBut no matter how much protection you give them, if it fails, you don't have to worry about missing terminations, but missing fingers...
not everything must be expensive to be good, but, of course, most crappy things are the cheapo ones
but we must imagine that a big company can make something good and cheap.
I got some from taking apart primary CR-V3 cells. Each CR-V3 has two AA primary 3.0v inside.
You typically find these CR-V3 on-sale. I got mine before Circuit City closed down for $1.99 for a pack of 2 CR-V3. That's 4 AA per pack, $0.50 per 3.0v AA. Great deal.
Use it in my L1D.
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Marduke
Flashaholic
The low cost isn't what makes the DX ones junk, the fact that they are junk is what makes them junk. If they were expensive, they would just be expensive junk.
They do not offer the same protection as name brand cells (such as AW's). The chargers are also much more dangerous. Just because YOU have not had issue when them doesn't mean they are acceptable for general (non-enthusiast) use.
There is a whole forum dedicated to "incidents", of which the junk (which just happens to tend towards the "cheap" side) has a high proportion of said "incidents".
I highly suggest you actually read up on lithium safety and use, instead of assuming "it worked for me, so it must be fine". There are a lot of fine technical details I am fairly certain you are currently oblivious to.
They do not offer the same protection as name brand cells (such as AW's). The chargers are also much more dangerous. Just because YOU have not had issue when them doesn't mean they are acceptable for general (non-enthusiast) use.
There is a whole forum dedicated to "incidents", of which the junk (which just happens to tend towards the "cheap" side) has a high proportion of said "incidents".
I highly suggest you actually read up on lithium safety and use, instead of assuming "it worked for me, so it must be fine". There are a lot of fine technical details I am fairly certain you are currently oblivious to.
Illum
Flashaholic
nicely done! :thumbsup:
Marduke, im aware of li-ion safety and risks it offers, im just taking a point, that cheap stuff also works, and not forgetting, as your own signature say, even the best alkaline leaks
of course, statistics does not lie, crap things does blow up gazzilion times more than quality stuff. but it does not stop manufacturers to make cheap stuff that works for "most people", like me. and like me, they still sell a large amount of batteries, because, it works for most people.
im sure that any *****Fire company (note that all "end with fire" :thinking can make a battery this way, and be very cheap, maintaining it's "quality standard" (i mean, keeping the current ratio of blown-up/not blown-up products)
in my country even the junk are expensive, and "hi-quality" products here are only for people with trees that grow money. AW here for example, not even in the "wildest dream" :mecry:
of course, statistics does not lie, crap things does blow up gazzilion times more than quality stuff. but it does not stop manufacturers to make cheap stuff that works for "most people", like me. and like me, they still sell a large amount of batteries, because, it works for most people.
im sure that any *****Fire company (note that all "end with fire" :thinking
can make a battery this way, and be very cheap, maintaining it's "quality standard" (i mean, keeping the current ratio of blown-up/not blown-up products)in my country even the junk are expensive, and "hi-quality" products here are only for people with trees that grow money. AW here for example, not even in the "wildest dream" :mecry:
vali
Enlightened
Keep in mind you are comparing cheap lithium chargers from DX with a brand name charger for NiMH. The fact is you can buy really cheap chargers for each chemistry, but if you want a decent (and safe) one the cheapest to lithium is the PILA and, compared with a similary priced NiMH one, the difference in capabilities is huge.
The problem is if you get a bad charger for NiMH the cells will be damaged, will lose capacity, will develop high self discharge and high internal resistance. If you get a bad charger for lithim you can end burning your house. There are a couple of threads testing, comparing and reviewing some lithium chargers. None of the ones you can buy from DX are safe nor have the recommended charging methods. Most of them trickle charged the cells (and with lithium it means BIG trouble).
Some time ago I was searching for a lithium charger with a craddle with at least a couple of bays, that can charge cells individually and were safe. The search was fruitless. Asking for things like testing the capacity seems to be science fiction unless you buy a hobby charger (and then you cant get independent charging channels AFAIK) and do some DIY.
In the end: We have good chargers (fairly simple and cheap) that manage safe chemistries and not even a single one safe enough to handle the more dangerous cells...
The problem is if you get a bad charger for NiMH the cells will be damaged, will lose capacity, will develop high self discharge and high internal resistance. If you get a bad charger for lithim you can end burning your house. There are a couple of threads testing, comparing and reviewing some lithium chargers. None of the ones you can buy from DX are safe nor have the recommended charging methods. Most of them trickle charged the cells (and with lithium it means BIG trouble).
Some time ago I was searching for a lithium charger with a craddle with at least a couple of bays, that can charge cells individually and were safe. The search was fruitless. Asking for things like testing the capacity seems to be science fiction unless you buy a hobby charger (and then you cant get independent charging channels AFAIK) and do some DIY.
In the end: We have good chargers (fairly simple and cheap) that manage safe chemistries and not even a single one safe enough to handle the more dangerous cells...
csshih
Flashlight Enthusiast
now.. imagine these cells in the hands of a general "stupid" consumer, sticking these batteries in backwards, etc, etc. just how many layers of protection would you need for these cells?
well, "a few" for start... and a bunch of "warnings" in big font... like Ni-Zn "high voltage".. as they also can be dangerous... but they do not have the
factor.It is quite obvious why no reputable company wants to do a generic li-ion charger: they have no control over the batteries used.
Remember that the Pila IBC Charger is a charger for "Pila Li-Ion" batteries, not for AW, TrustFire or generic 18650 batteries. If you use it with something else than Pila batteries then you are on your own.
That is why mobile phones and laptops work without incidents, the manufacturer has full control over the battery packs used and can make sure the total solution is safe. If there is a problem then they have to recall all the batteries.
Who will recall all TrustFire-chargers if/when they blow up with some random battery? No one.
Remember that the Pila IBC Charger is a charger for "Pila Li-Ion" batteries, not for AW, TrustFire or generic 18650 batteries. If you use it with something else than Pila batteries then you are on your own.
That is why mobile phones and laptops work without incidents, the manufacturer has full control over the battery packs used and can make sure the total solution is safe. If there is a problem then they have to recall all the batteries.
Who will recall all TrustFire-chargers if/when they blow up with some random battery? No one.
And I thought writing "If there is a problem then they have to recall all the batteries." after it would mean that I didn't have to write "safe" instead of safe, but I guess not.
I see that you are arguing against yourself.
It can still happen when the manufacturer have full control over both batteries and charger (and yes they will be recalled if they explode). It would be thousands of times more common with random chargers and random loose cells in them.
sort of. my point is, even being a "dangerous" thing (li-ion with circuit to reduce to 1.5v) it wold be just "more" dangerous than what we have today. wold not be something "astronomical" dangerous.
if we consider that every user will do stupid things with a product, nothing is safe. we must rely on "user brain" to use it correctly.
anyone can put ni-mh on a ni-zn charger. anyone can drop a quality li-ion cell on the floor. anyone can put a 14500 cell on something and forget it is 3x more voltage than a "normal AA". anyone can put a li-ion cell in the pocket and forget that a metal key-chain can cause a short-circuit. a li-ion cell does not come with a 3 sheet manual with everything that you should "not do". "don't wash it - don't trow on fire - don't eat it".
any crap manufacturer can make this battery and say: "use specific charger - don't trow away - don't short circuit". them, sell together with a charger for it. that's it. if it catch on fire wile charging, and blow up your house, "sorry". if you use incorrectly and also blow up your house, "sorry". this is the kind of safety we already have on most generic brand products.
if you can get something with quality, good. if you get a cheapo product, good luck and better you be smart on how to use it.
bikelunatic
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2009
- Messages
- 1
Sorry for butting in. New to the forum
So are you saying, companies/manufactures design produces to the battery specifics
and not the other way round?>
Russel
Enlightened
He is saying that physics determines the voltage of lithium ion rechargeable cells. The cell voltage of any given battery is determined by it's chemistry.
Do you realize that this thread is several years old?
StorminMatt
Flashlight Enthusiast
I realize this is an old thread. But I thought I would throw in my two cents worth here. It is entirely possible that a lithium chemistry could be found that would allow for a 1.5 volt rechargeable battery. But the BIG question is whether such a battery would REALLY be better than what we already have (ie NiMH). Consider the Energizer L91/L92 lithium primaries. These exist because they serve a definite purpose. Namely, they give consumers the option of a primary battery that remedies many of the shortcomings of alkaline batteries. These shortcomings include low current capability, excessive voltage sag under a load, terminal voltage which drops drastically as the battery is discharged, and drastically reduced capacity at higher loads. When you consider these things, the advantage of L91/L92 primaries is that they behave more like NiMH batteries compared to alkalines.
The issue is therefore how a 1.5 volt rechargeable lithium battery could be better enough than NiMH batteries to justify their development. And I can't see how you could improve much on NiMH. NiMH already has the ability to deliver high current with little voltage sag, and deliver a very constant voltage during discharge. Capacity also drops little as discharg current increases. And because the elctrolyte is aqueous, NiMH is a very safe chemistry. Some make an issue of the 1.2 volt nominal voltage. But this is FAR less of an issue in practice. And if this is REALLY a problem, further development of existing technologies like Ni-Zn would be FAR more cost effective. Of course, if a rechargeable lithium battery with all the virtues of NiMH could be developed which has drastically greater capacity than NiMH, that might be another story. But I don't see this as likely.
In the end, NiMH is awfully hard to beat, especially given the REALLY good, low cost LSD options available today. Any rechargeable lithium batteries of similar nominal voltage would have to be FAR superior to existing NiMH and cost effective in ordr to be successful. And THAT'S a tall order.
The issue is therefore how a 1.5 volt rechargeable lithium battery could be better enough than NiMH batteries to justify their development. And I can't see how you could improve much on NiMH. NiMH already has the ability to deliver high current with little voltage sag, and deliver a very constant voltage during discharge. Capacity also drops little as discharg current increases. And because the elctrolyte is aqueous, NiMH is a very safe chemistry. Some make an issue of the 1.2 volt nominal voltage. But this is FAR less of an issue in practice. And if this is REALLY a problem, further development of existing technologies like Ni-Zn would be FAR more cost effective. Of course, if a rechargeable lithium battery with all the virtues of NiMH could be developed which has drastically greater capacity than NiMH, that might be another story. But I don't see this as likely.
In the end, NiMH is awfully hard to beat, especially given the REALLY good, low cost LSD options available today. Any rechargeable lithium batteries of similar nominal voltage would have to be FAR superior to existing NiMH and cost effective in ordr to be successful. And THAT'S a tall order.
Shadow352008
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2013
- Messages
- 4
I realize that this is an old thread, but it addresses a question that I've been wondering about. It's said here that the 3.7 volt batteries are Lithium ION types and the non rechargable types are just Lithium, and the chemical listing was very nice, but doesn't list what is in the 1.5 volt lithium types?
