Master thread for disasters and generators.

[kilogulf59]

@MyUsernameTX , Thank you for the interesting and informative explanation.

I have a question regarding hooking up the generator to the house circuit. If this isn't the place for this question, tell me.

OK, keep in mind this is all new to me and I'm not an electrician so my nomenclature won't be correct.

If I had an electrician hook up a plug and throw switch on my circuit breaker panel to plug the generator into, I could use a smaller generator (non-whole house) and shut off the breakers I'm not using at the time, correct? By manipulating the breakers I could run different items, no?

 

[TPA]

If power outages are frequent, I normally tell people to install a 110v mini-split in a bedroom or central part of the building. The inverter ones are soft-start. Doing this you can greatly downsize the generator needed and use less fuel. The newer inverter heat pump mini-splits are amazing at heat these days too. I believe Mitsubishi now can heat down to -10F or so.

After a hurricane, even a 6,000 BTU window shaker AC does wonders in a 1500sqft house in Florida. For Hurricane Irma, I failed to convince my better half that the beach was the best place to ride out a hurricane, so we went to a cousin's house with just a single EU2000 and window shaker packed in the car. It ran the fridge, fans, lights, electronics, and window shaker on about 2 gallons/day. My preferred setup is 2x Honda EU2000 generators running in parallel. It gives me redundancy + capacity. If money and space permit and you're looking to do a more permanent install, the EU3000is/7000is can be remotely started.

@kilogulf59 : There's two different ways of doing it, the "right" way is to have a subpanel put in where your critical circuits can be flipped between utility & generator power. The other way is just back-feeding the panel with appropriate disconnects and lockouts to make sure you don't fry some poor lineman and just selectively turn on circuits on your main panel.

At my "real" condo, we had 3 large generators which powered everything, even the landscape lighting and fountains, and ACs running at 1/2 capacity. It's great and quite decadent to be honest. Power goes out, 3 seconds later the generator cranks, about 10 seconds later everything pops back on. VERY costly to run though, and if you're on propane like we are, good luck getting propane delivered after a major outage. Last year Hurricane Ian's storm surge took out the generators violently, so the EU2000s saved the day...again. There's something to be said about a portable setup in an emergency.

 

[MyUsernameTX]

@MyUsernameTX , Thank you for the interesting and informative explanation.

I have a question regarding hooking up the generator to the house circuit. If this isn't the place for this question, tell me.

OK, keep in mind this is all new to me and I'm not an electrician so my nomenclature won't be correct.

If I had an electrician hook up a plug and throw switch on my circuit breaker panel to plug the generator into, I could use a smaller generator (non-whole house) and shut off the breakers I'm not using at the time, correct? By manipulating the breakers I could run different items, no?

Yes, just get them to install an interlock like this. Then you cannot turn the generator inlet breaker and the main breaker on at the same time

The catch is that you have zero control of what goes on what leg of the circuit. So you could find you have all your critical devices on L1 and L2 is completely unloaded (Unlikely, but you get the idea)

Its a very cheap solution. Another solution would be to get a transfers switch, they usually have up to about 10 switches, where you can then switch between generator and grid. This would let you balance the load on the generator or even use a 110v only generator (Assuming no 240v loads, of course)

If power outages are frequent, I normally tell people to install a 110v mini-split in a bedroom or central part of the building. The inverter ones are soft-start. Doing this you can greatly downsize the generator needed and use less fuel. The newer inverter heat pump mini-splits are amazing at heat these days too. I believe Mitsubishi now can heat down to -10F or so.

After a hurricane, even a 6,000 BTU window shaker AC does wonders in a 1500sqft house in Florida. For Hurricane Irma, I failed to convince my better half that the beach was the best place to ride out a hurricane, so we went to a cousin's house with just a single EU2000 and window shaker packed in the car. It ran the fridge, fans, lights, electronics, and window shaker on about 2 gallons/day. My preferred setup is 2x Honda EU2000 generators running in parallel. It gives me redundancy + capacity. If money and space permit and you're looking to do a more permanent install, the EU3000is/7000is can be remotely started.

@kilogulf59 : There's two different ways of doing it, the "right" way is to have a subpanel put in where your critical circuits can be flipped between utility & generator power. The other way is just back-feeding the panel with appropriate disconnects and lockouts to make sure you don't fry some poor lineman and just selectively turn on circuits on your main panel.

At my "real" condo, we had 3 large generators which powered everything, even the landscape lighting and fountains, and ACs running at 1/2 capacity. It's great and quite decadent to be honest. Power goes out, 3 seconds later the generator cranks, about 10 seconds later everything pops back on. VERY costly to run though, and if you're on propane like we are, good luck getting propane delivered after a major outage. Last year Hurricane Ian's storm surge took out the generators violently, so the EU2000s saved the day...again. There's something to be said about a portable setup in an emergency.

Go 240v for the mini split, then its 100% balanced across the generator, assuming a 240v generator. I have 3 of them, work great on the portable generator!

 

[kilogulf59]

You guys have done this before

Thanks for the info, I'll get back to you later. If I don't finish the vacuuming before the missus get's home, she'll beat the hell outta me (and not in that fun way)

 

[TPA]

I push for the 110v mini-splits because they'll run on any power source, even the smallest of generators. All of the smaller inverter generators are 110v-only, like my Honda EU2000s. When I twin them, they're still 110v. Even those new lithium battery packs will run them. Even an inverter attached to a car can run them. When power's out, especially when it will be out for a long time, where are you going to get fuel to power those 240 volt giants? Gas lines can be 5 hours long to get 5 gallons of gas. Other than Florida, I don't know of another area where gas stations commonly have generators.

If you're running inverter generators, "balance" isn't an issue with them. If you're not running an inverter generator, you're just wasting money these days. They're not that much more and the economy, quietness, and longevity are worth it. My EU2000 is 18 years old, very neglected, and still keeps going. I think I've only done 5 or so oil changes on it in that time.

I'll fully admit that I'm hurricane-centric when it comes to my preparations and know ZERO about cold-weather stuff. I've been through well over a dozen of them including many Cat 3, 4, and 5 storms. The idea of having to abandon ship and GTFO is central, so I value equipment which can be easily carried and portable. I also get sent into storm areas for prep and restoration.

Yes, my beach bunker survived the hurricane quite well and was by-far the safest place to ride out a storm...but it was only designed to take on a Cat 4 without damage. The engineers flat out said it would be a great, safe place to ride out a Cat 5, but that the building would need repair afterwards. After 50 years of hurricanes, they were 100% correct, if not a bit humble as much less damage occurred than they had predicted. So, our 3x large 3-phase generators were all rendered useless. Because of debris blocking access to the electrical room downstairs, so was my panel in my condo. I could have popped open the panel, removed the mains from the lugs and back-fed the panel that way, but it was just easier to stay 110v and run extension cords until they could muck out the electrical room.

 

[MyUsernameTX]

Ah yes, I hadn't thought of the smaller 110v only generators like the EU2000is, they are not really on my radar since I have much bigger loads

 

[MyUsernameTX]

Here are some pictures of my backup-backup generator, and my gas storage. Would love a Honda, but can't justify the price. Got this for $500 on sale at Amazon, hard to beat

I added a switch to go from bonded to floating, and also swapped one of the GFCI's for a regular outlet (I needed to power a UPS, and the UPS doesn't like GFCI)

Here is the Tri-fuel kit (Yes, I now realize a flare fitting doesn't want tape...)

Works great on NG, but I keep a bunch of Wavian NATO cans filled and rotated

I keep the generator itself full too

Here is the inlet. Its able to be closed while in use too which is nice

 

[kilogulf59]

Morning all. I noticed all you folks who are very knowledgeable and heavy users are mostly from hurricane prone areas. That's a "duh" statement, I know, however I was just making an observation. You look at things differently than someone from the Upper Midwest, such as myself. We get everything else but hurricanes, thank God, and I can't imagine dealing with those.

Some of the nomenclature I had to look up. Example; mini-split, I never heard of one. Nonetheless, this is how one learns.

It's also apparent to me that some (most?) of you know more about household electricity than I do, at least at/in the CB panel. Wiring, outlets, switches, I'm fine with.

Personally, a set up like @MyUsernameTX has is what I had in mind. Even the generator is the approximate size and brand I was thinking of. My biggest concerns are water (we have a well) and some power to, at least, run the pellet stove in the cold months, fridge, and freezers. Oh, and the sump pumps if they need it. I do have battery backups on those although sometimes they don't run for years. Running the furnace/AC would be nice except if I add those in there's only a couple more things and I'm back at a whole-house set up again. See how this becomes a rabbit hole for me? I overthink it and then forget the whole thing.

A couple of question/comments...

I thought Champion was a good brand of generator? OK, it seems that Honda is the cat's ***, still where does Champion rank? Which brand is No. 2?

Is 7 kw too big or big enough for my needs?
I'd like it to be duel fuel, gasoline and LP (NG isn't an option here). I even have an out building I can store the gas cans in. The gas can be rotated in our trucks.

@MyUsernameTX what do you mean by "I added a switch to go from bonded to floating" and why did you do this?

That inlet is very nice and I like the fact that it's covered. Does that then hook up to your circuit breaker panel or just inside outlets?

This can go on forever. Like I said, I get somewhat overwhelmed and them think, "in the last 18+ years, how many times would you have used this?". BTW, the answer is none. If the oh mighty dollar weren't a factor, I'd go for it in a heartbeat. We are fairly well prepared here and this is the weak spot. Maybe a smaller generator and just plug what I need into it? Is it too early to start drinking?

 

[MyUsernameTX]

Personally, a set up like @MyUsernameTX has is what I had in mind. Even the generator is the approximate size and brand I was thinking of. My biggest concerns are water (we have a well) and some power to, at least, run the pellet stove in the cold months, fridge, and freezers. Oh, and the sump pumps if they need it. I do have battery backups on those although sometimes they don't run for years. Running the furnace/AC would be nice except if I add those in there's only a couple more things and I'm back at a whole-house set up again. See how this becomes a rabbit hole for me? I overthink it and then forget the whole thing.

Personally I could not go without a standby generator again. No hooking things up, when the power goes out, it just comes on. No messing with anything.

Honestly, if you spent the money on a REALLY GOOD portable generator, and then paid an electrician to wire up a manual tranfer switch etc, you're almost at the cost of a low end air cooled standby generator.

HOWEVER, you're on propane right? A standby generator will burn through LP like you won't belive. I personally would make my endgame one of the AURORA diesel generators with an ATS

https://www.auroragenerators.com/

I thought Champion was a good brand of generator? OK, it seems that Honda is the cat's ***, still where does Champion rank? Which brand is No. 2?

They're made in china "Junk", but they are good enough for the price. Honestly Honda's prices are just insane. I have no doubt the EU7000is is a fantastic machine, but $6000 good? No way. You could literally buy 6 cheap generators for that price.

If I needed a big portable generator, I'd personally try find an in stock PREDATOR 9500

9500 Watt SUPER QUIET Inverter Generator with CO SECURE Technology

Amazing deals on this 9500W Co Secure Inverter Generator at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

Is 7 kw too big or big enough for my needs?
I'd like it to be duel fuel, gasoline and LP (NG isn't an option here). I even have an out building I can store the gas cans in. The gas can be rotated in our trucks.

You really need to make a list of the devices you own and want to power during an outage, and then add it up. If you have just 1500w of stuff, running a larger generator will just burn more fuel.

@MyUsernameTX what do you mean by "I added a switch to go from bonded to floating" and why did you do this?

That inlet is very nice and I like the fact that it's covered. Does that then hook up to your circuit breaker panel or just inside outlets?

If you are running the generator on its own, not hooked up to a house you want the neutral to be bonded to ground on the generator for proper safety, but, when you hook it up to your home, you now have the ground and neutral bonded in 2 places, which can cause current to flow over the ground conductor which can be a danger. Much smarter people than me can explain it better, or google it

Usually its a pain to switch between the 2, so I just installed a switch. Really just because I was bored...

This can go on forever. Like I said, I get somewhat overwhelmed and them think, "in the last 18+ years, how many times would you have used this?". BTW, the answer is none. If the oh mighty dollar weren't a factor, I'd go for it in a heartbeat. We are fairly well prepared here and this is the weak spot. Maybe a smaller generator and just plug what I need into it? Is it too early to start drinking?

I would start off with a decent small generator, and then add a stand-by unit if you get that itch

 

[kilogulf59]

Lots of info and I'm tight on time. I'll comment tomorrow.

 

[Poppy]

Lots of info and I'm tight on time. I'll comment tomorrow.

I know that you know the pros and cons of BIG vs Small generators.
I won't reiterate it here.

I went with a mid/small 3500 Harbor freight super quiet inverter generator.
Considering that you haven't needed one in ten years, you could just use extension cords.
I imagine that for less than $1,000 you could have an electrician install a inlet box, and an interlock kit.

Amazon.com

then you can legally back-feed your panel.

With a 120V unit you'll only be able to supply one leg of the panel, but you can have the electrician move some of the breakers around so you kitchen and living room feeds are on the same leg.

 

[BVH]

And shut off all the 240V breakers when feeding with only one, 120 Volt phase

 

[kilogulf59]

OK, got me a nice, fresh, cup of java, so here goes...

First thing is I want to say is thank you for all the assistance and advice. Hearing from people with real experience is far better than guess work, sales pitches, or half baked on-line reviews.

Considering my outage history here, over the last 18½-years, for me a standby whole-house generator setup would be a waste. That's not to say something won't change in the future, however a plan's got to be based upon a given set of circumstances not "what ifs". Therefore, with that said, I would like something, just in case.

Doing some brief research on Predator/Harbor Freight generators, it seems they're made in California? Is that correct? As well, I didn't come across many bad reviews so can I assume Predator's are a fairly good generator? Man, there's so many generator makes out there it's hard to choose. Honda's are great but they are way overpriced, IMO. Please understand, I'm not cheap, I'm thrifty/frugal. The way I see it is, to use an automotive analogy, I don't need a Rolls Royce to go to the grocery store and run errands, all I need is a Ford or Chevy. Nevertheless, I most certainly do not want a Yugo.

What I have decided on is a small to medium size, gas powered, inverter generator and either extension cords (I would need LONG ones) or a hookup on my circuit breaker panel like Poppy mentioned. I'd like to have three to five days worth of gas on hand, which I can easily run through our trucks so as to always have a fresh supply. Also, I know enough about engines to know you have to maintain them and run them once in a while. Any-who, that seems like the best solution (for my situation) and also the least expensive one.

 

[scout24]

I understand the frustration with the price of Honda's offerings. I own two, an eu2000i and a 7000i. The 2000 is 20 years old, has aboit 1500 hours on it, starts on the 3rd or 4th pull, and has needed nothing but routine maintenance. I can walk into any Honda generator dealer nationwide and order parts, have service work done, etc. I don't have confidence the Predator offerings have that level of support. That said, they seem serviceable out of the box. My 2 cents, I'm glad we have as many choices as we do. Buy what works for your situation. 👍

 

[kaichu dento]

And shut off all the 240V breakers when feeding with only one, 120 Volt phase

More easily understood, and a great way to proceed safely is to simply flip all the breakers off, then only turn on the circuits needed. Many like myself don't run generators to power the whole house, but to get by until the power comes back, making lights, heat and refrigeration top priorities.

 

[kilogulf59]

@kaichu dento that was my plan.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

I don't know if this is the proper thread to post this in, but think it is relevant here. If not, I can delete it here and repost it in a different thread.

Klein Tools Recalls Blackfire and Klein Tools Power Stations Due to Fire and Burn Hazards

Consumers should immediately stop using the recalled Blackfire and Klein Tools power stations and return the recalled Blackfire and Klein Tools power stations to their original place of purchase. Klein Tools is contacting all known purchasers directly.

www.cpsc.gov

 

[KITROBASKIN]

We have a relative who is a district manager with Harbor Freight. A few years ago she talked about their generators being made at the same factory as well known American name generators.

Champion has a good reputation on the diysolarforum but no one is trying to say they are perfect. Many do like the decreased maintenance and reliable fuel of propane (it does not get old like gasoline) and accept the de-rating and increased expense.

Honda is still considered the pinnacle by many, but in your situation of maybe not really using it much at all…

Of course investing in solar power is what we did. Our emergency backup is providing our electricity all the time. We do get more sun than many places, but also cloudy spells.

 

[BVH]

Finally got all the circuitry in-place for testing my pair of Pecron E1500LFP's each with the max of 2 cascaded batteries attached. Each one has about 5.7 KW "usable", 7680 raw capacity. The full/true sine wave inverter is rated at 2200 Watts with a surge of 4000 Watts. All batteries are automotive style Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry good for 3500 cycles to 80% of original capacity. I am connecting them utilizing a basement located second whole house generator connector that is in Parallel with my existing exterior whole house generator inlet but wired for only one phase. All wire from units to whole house connector is 8 AWG (15 feet) and from there back to the panel is 6 AWG (85 feet). The whole house connector located outside is for my Honda 7000i and also for my Honda 2200 inverter generator. When I installed my new Square D 225 AMP service entrance panel 2 years ago, I gave the electrician a breaker-by-breaker assignment for the circuits so that the circuits I wanted on single/120V phase stand-by power would all be on one phase while staying reasonably balanced with the two phases. I installed the factory Square D generator interlock. The furnace ended up on the non-powered 120V phase so I am using the second Pecron to run that with a simple extension cord. This also puts less load on the primary Pecron so it will last longer. I began our test run today at 10 AM. At 430 PM, I have 57% remaining on the whole house unit and 89% remaining on the furnace unit. This includes two (40 min & 35 min) minute Breville countertop oven runs using 1600 Watts on the whole house unit. I watched the consumption of the main unit when the Breville was started. It quickly increased by about 1600 Watts through preheat. Then the oven regulates power to stay at temperature. It does not cycle to maintain temp. I like that feature. The food stays very close, if not right on temp. I also got lucky when I bought our Profile frige 13 years ago. It utilizes a DC driven, soft start compressor. There is no high inrush current, it just slowly spins up. It uses about 125 Watts when running. There is very little fan noise in the basement from the two units and zero fan noise throughout the house. I think conservatively we will get 10 hours normal "day" use out of the main unit and close to 3 days out of the furnace dedicated unit depending on outside temps. What's also nice is that the Pecrons can be charged while being used. They have an on-board 1400 Watt charger and can utilize generator power to charge the batteries and also that power can be passed through into the AC output. So my idea is to use my Honda 2200i during long-term outages to recharge the main unit when its running and hits 20% remaining capacity. I won't be running the genny and using a lot of gas to power 400-500 Watts for many hours. I'll run it for about 3.5 hours at a 2000 Watt load to recharge and pass through power to satisfy the load and then shut it down. These units have 2 separate solar charge controllers built in good for 1400 Watts combined and as with house charging power, can be charging and feeding load while the unit is in operation. Totaled up, when I get the E3600, I will have a total Gross KWhrs of 25.6 and a usable KWhrs of 19.7. There are tons of DC output connectors on the front panel. Cig outlet, 6 USB outlets, some high power, some not and an XT60 connector good for 30 Amps of DC current output. Even a wireless charger platform on the top for your phone. There's a phone app to monitor the status of the units. I have not found any feature to turn them on or off, just to monitor output and remaining capacity.

In my future, Pecron is releasing their E3000LFP in the next few months. It has an on-board 3072 Watt Hour battery and it's inverter is rated at 3600 Watts. An additional 4 each, 3072 Watt hour cascaded batteries can be accommodated giving this unit a gross KWhrs capacity of 15.4 and a net capacity of 12.3 KWhrs. This is what I plan to use for the whole house unit. I'd estimate this will give me about 24 hours of "day" use between charges so probably two running days. The E1500LFP furnace unit will stay in that usage mode. The spare E1500LFP with both cascaded batteries will probably come in the house for whatever use crops up although pretty much everything is covered except the built-in Profile oven with attached microwave. But that entire unit is 240 Volt so out of the picture with any of my battery backup systems. That's the reason for the Breville oven. Maybe a small countertop microwave is in the future.

Yes, I have a ton of backup options. I decided to add the Pecron system only because I just love playing with batteries. I get a lot of enjoyment watching the clean and silent system work. I would love a roof solar system with battery backup and automatic transfer switch but I refuse to have any holes put in my pristine roof. My unobstructed South facing roof (180 degrees True) is about 60' by 25'. Someone needs to develop a completely cantilevered mounting system so there are no holes necessary to mount the panels. I'd also like a Kohler 24 or so KWhr whole house, 1800 RPM, water cooled, enclosed unit but I'm in a conventional neighborhood and that wouldn't fly well. No side yard space and I don't want it in the small'ish back yard.

Just finished the test at 9 hours. Both of us were home all day so constant usage. The whole house E1500 was down to 24% - meaning 24% usable capacity left, not 24% of Gross but 24% of net capacity so probably 11.5 hours with a bit left.

 

[BVH]

We have a relative who is a district manager with Harbor Freight. A few years ago she talked about their generators being made at the same factory as well known American name generators.

Champion has a good reputation on the diysolarforum but no one is trying to say they are perfect. Many do like the decreased maintenance and reliable fuel of propane (it does not get old like gasoline) and accept the de-rating and increased expense.

Honda is still considered the pinnacle by many, but in your situation of maybe not really using it much at all…

Of course investing in solar power is what we did. Our emergency backup is providing our electricity all the time. We do get more sun than many places, but also cloudy spells.

Curiously, It would be fun to know if the HF generators being made at the well known American name generators factory are being made using the same specs and parts as the American brand or just being made in the same factory which really means little. Would be interesting to see if you can find that out and report back.