New 3W U-bins

[Kiessling]

[ QUOTE ]
I think they will be best placed in designs that are currently "at the margin" or upper limit for the Luxeons. A design based on tight beam with maximum throw will benefit. A design with minimal thermal mass and size that is also targeting significant luminious output will benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm ... I'd like to disagree a little here.
When using a higher flux LED in a moderately driven light you can reduce the drive current even further, thus gaining runtime. Runtime is even more crucial than max. brightness these days. Bright they are all, but long running is another story.
So for me, higher flux might well mean lower drive current for the same amount of light, and is well worth it even in a 08/15 light.
Depending on price and availability, of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bernhard

 

[McGizmo]

Great comments guys! Bernhard, if runtime is a significant factor to you and worth paying a premium on, you are of course correct. Appearantly not well implied in my comment about "at the margin" is a consideration that with additional cells or rechargeable cells, runtimes can be tweaked within the current technologies. Higher flux and the use there of is dependent on higher flux LED's which are not so readily available.

Today's camera film can capture a useable image with + or - 1 F stop if not better. That equates to double or half a given amount of light. Digital cameras have even more lattitude in regards to exposure; or that has been my experience. The human eye is capable of capturing a useful image well beyond these cameras, typically.

Yes there are visible and measurable differences associated with the LED bins as well as among a single bin. These differences are mostly only aparent upon comparison, relative to another light, and not obvious or aparent in singular use. If we go into the dark, I hand you a light and you use it, will you be able to tell me what bin the LED is? Can you present me with a typical application or reasonable use of any flashlight in which the light will perform as needed with a U bin and fail because the bin were a M bin?

EDIT: as a builder and modder of lights, I hope the light I build tomorrow is equal to or marginally beter than the light I build today. There are many avenues of possible improvement and certainly one of them is a higher flux LED. I can also go for a better or different optic package, more efficient driver, better battery, less resistance in contacts and on and on. I can claim and attach "value" to these incrimental improvements but their true value will be up to the buyer or user!

I can state that a particular light is the best light ever made or the last light you will ever need to purchase! You can tell me to take a hike or a leap at a rolling donut! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

 

[NewBie]

Of course a person could get a lot of bang out of going after the reflector coating instead, or other areas...

How so, many are inclined to ask. Well...

http://optoelectronics.perkinelmer.com/content/RelatedLinks/Aero_WP_EF_Optical%20Coating.PDF
Go to Figure 1, and take a look at the various coatings.

Now go here and look at Protected Silver:
http://optics.mellesgriot.com/opguide/oc_5_1.htm


That gain is significant.


Next I'd be looking for serious thermal transfer over the largest surface possible to keep the Luxeon slug as cool as possible.

Then I'd go for a high efficiency converter, to minimize heat generation, and prolong battery life (impact is greater than first imagined, since efficient converter draws even less power out of the battery, so you get less losses in the battery also.)

And I'd be looking at a minimum of 2 sided AR coated borofloat, or one of the perfectly clear glasses like B270 or Eagle 2000 with 2 sided AR coating.


Then if ->I<- didn't need it right away, I'd definitely wait for the release of the Luxeon IV, since the output is higher (greater efficiency), and it also has a much lower thermal resistance. Instead of just a marginal and debate ridden increase of a U bin vs. T bin.

I'd most definitely not be trying to compare WO vs. X1 color bin parts for brightness, while also comparing T vs. U thats nearly a sin in itself. While we are on that subject, photos which show the two lights side by side in the same photograph are more valuable, imho...

Then there is the point of how hard you are driving the Luxeon. The light output curves actually do change within the same bin. If I use 50% the power, of two matched parts that were matched at 700mA, the likelyhood of them being the same brightness at 350mA is *exceedingly* low. At the seminars, LumiLEDs used to basically say, if you are running them a different current level then they were binned at, all bets are off. After measuring quite a number of LEDs, I'd most definitely have to agree wholeheartedly.

Then also keep in mind, they are binned at 25 Celcius junction temperature (Tj). In real life, there is a very high chance the die will be 85-110 degrees Celcius. Why does that matter?

Well, as the die temperature changes, the wavelength (color) of the blue LED inside changes. This affects the phosphor conversion efficiency, which changes the ratio of the blue LED output vs. the "yellow" YAG or YAG:Ce phophor. So, what does that mean to me? Well, it means that the bin is going to change, since it is not ran under the same conditions as it was binned at.

It looks like the Aleph series has outstanding thermal sinking, and I really can't wait to get my hands on the new Aleph III head. The thermal efficiency will improve even further with this nice large head.

Of course, great thermal managment (good heatsinking), is going to go a very long way to providing a person the lowest possible die temperature. The other great thing, is the output of the Luxeon gets more efficient, the cooler you keep it.

So, we run them at a different current, different temperature, very doubtful you'll stay in the same bin...

Even when PWM dimmed, the LEDs shift very significantly, even if you regulate the current pulses very carefully:

Compare the change in output when compared to current dimming:

All that said, in the end, if you need it now, or don't want to wait until someone gets a premium color, intensity, Vf bin Luxeon IV, since there probably won't be a lot of selection to pick from at first (could take months on months), one of these T or U bins would be a great choice.

Personally, if I was that picky, I'd ask the maker of the lights actually measure his batches when built up and finished, and pick out the best, once built, and offer him a Premium price for doing so. Of course, that is a pain for the maker too...

 

[cy]

[ QUOTE ]
NewBie said:
Of course a person could get a lot of bang out of going after the reflector coating instead, or other areas...

http://optoelectronics.perkinelmer.com/content/RelatedLinks/Aero_WP_EF_Optical%20Coating.PDF
Go to Figure 1, and take a look at the various coatings.

Now go here and look at Protected Silver:
http://optics.mellesgriot.com/opguide/oc_5_1.htm

That gain is significant.


Then also keep in mind, they are binned at 25 Celcius junction temperature (Tj). In real life, there is a very high chance the die will be 85-110 degrees Celcius.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percentage loss do we need to factor for these reflective coatings VS std coatings aka SO17 IMS reflectors?


how much loss do we need to factor for 85-110 celcius junction temp VS 25 celcius?

 

[NewBie]

[ QUOTE ]
cy said:
[ QUOTE ]
NewBie said:
Of course a person could get a lot of bang out of going after the reflector coating instead, or other areas...

http://optoelectronics.perkinelmer.com/content/RelatedLinks/Aero_WP_EF_Optical%20Coating.PDF
Go to Figure 1, and take a look at the various coatings.

Now go here and look at Protected Silver:
http://optics.mellesgriot.com/opguide/oc_5_1.htm

That gain is significant.


Then also keep in mind, they are binned at 25 Celcius junction temperature (Tj). In real life, there is a very high chance the die will be 85-110 degrees Celcius.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percentage loss do we need to factor for these reflective coatings VS std coatings aka SO17 IMS reflectors?


how much loss do we need to factor for 85-110 celcius junction temp VS 25 celcius?

[/ QUOTE ]


On the output, looks like about 30% reduction due to heat:

On the reflector coating, compared to say the IMS, I'd guess a good 15% or more.

From a T to U bin, you are only looking at 23% on the average, but most likely, the U bins are not at the top, and the T bin are not at the bottom. Most likely, since U bins are so rare, they are probably in the very bottom of the U bin, just sweaking through.


Again, comparing a X1 to WO is pretty lame, imho. Only way to do it right is like a TX1J and a UX1J. Remember, a camera, just like the human eye, is less sensitive to blue, and much more sensitive to green. In a camera, a X1 will appear alot brighter (alot more power in the green range), where the WO will appear alot dimmer (less power in the green range).

It's like comparing apples to banannas. Yeah, they are both fruit, but no, they certainly ain't the same. For starters, they are different colors...

And if you ain't driving the luxeon under the same conditions as it was binned at (in a flashlight you most certainly are not), you are really taking guided pot shots at best.

Best thing is to have the flashlight maker measure the built unit, imho, and select out the best.

BTW, if you are over driving a X1, like at 1 Amp, or even higher, like at 1.2A of a LionHeart on a fresh cell, then a X1 would shift blue, pulling more towards white, most likey into the YO(highest chance) or XO bins, but possibly into the WO (but not likely).

 

[cy]

Ok, thanks. need some clarification. aprox. 30% losss for heat.

then add XX% for IMS reflectors? 15% for better reflective coating from IMS loss, which is?

what is the loss from IMS reflector? how much efficency difference does reflector size make?

Seems reflector size, coating properties, junction temp and lens material all contribute to lumens loss.

I've always prefer using a 40-45% loss to come up with a realistic lumens out the front end.

there are special cases of 52mm reflectors combined with exceptional heatsinking where 40-45% is too conservative.

 

[McGizmo]

[ QUOTE ]
Best thing is to have the flashlight maker measure the built unit, imho, and select out the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's realistic! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif What happens to the ones that are left? How does the pricing work? What is being measured and how? What size of run needs to be made for a reasonable selection of "best". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif this is such a good idea and great suggestion that I think it should be placed in a more important forum than the meager McGizmo forum! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif

As I recall, Gransee had that information on some of the Arcs. Now the Arcs were all of the same design and flavor. Might be a tad more difficult to go this route on custom builds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif Do you suppose measuring and charting each light was part of Peter's formula for success? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Newbie, some ideas look great on paper but they suffer reality shock when implimentation is attempted.

On another note, I am amazed to see so much discussion about color tint again! With some very few exceptions, I have yet to see a LuxIII that I felt was "out of bounds" due to a tint issue! Certainly the tint varries and can be readily seen in the pressence of ambient or additional light but is this a real problem? It seems that perhaps reality will never meet the expectations set by some within this forum. As the product improves, the expectations will just rise above. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Woe to us poor slobs who have to try to work with what we have on hand! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

In the interest of full disclosure, the lights that I build are ultimately defficient and faulty. There are numerous flaws and obvious shortcomings to them. They are no where near perfection and never will be. From a certain point of reference, they are nothing more than ca ca. In my defense, they usually do work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[wasBlinded]

I've found that "tint taste" is highly variable. And I mean that the tastes of a given sampler (me) seem to change from time to time!

I have two NG750 light engines, one with a TV1J, and one with a TWOJ. I built the TWOJ because I thought I was getting tired of the yellowish tint from the TV1J. The new TWOJ looked great to me! After using it for a few weeks, I picked up the TV1J again, and thought "Nice warm tint. That TWOJ now seems awfully cold and harsh!"

What gives? Heck if I know, except maybe I suffer "tint fatigue" and need constantly changing colors! This could get expensive....

 

[NewBie]

LOL.

IMHO, just a more realistic method that would ensure cream of the crop, like the U bin selection cy was talking about, but based on light out the front.

Certainly agree with you when talking custom builds. I was talking more about small volume stuff some folks do on cpf.

I feel it is highly doubtful charting lights had any basis for Gransee's failure. Though it was a means for getting some nice premium prices on some lights.

The main thing is comparing WO to X1 is a Fallacy. To compare, you got to compare X1 to X1.

 

[McGizmo]

I think tints are like wine, it depends on what's for dinner! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

In terms of comparisons, we can see and measure differences within the same batch and bin, no need to go further! In absence of comparisons, one would be hard pressed to identify any bin; be it color temp, flux or even Vf. Without a known reference light, measuring devices and monochromatic targets, I defy you to "name that bin!" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

I think we need to take these lights much more seriously and assign some meaningful, qualitative standards to the complete package. As Newbie has suggested, the complete package is ultimately that which should be evaluated. Now on to the seriousness (tactical and professional use aside), I think Wow factor, giggle quotient, coefficient of grin and some other meaningful attributes need to be assigned, binned and established as viable criteria for light selection, ranking and valuation.

If there were a tongue in cheek graemlin, I would trade it for the nana in a heart beat and probably be better understood or more easily ignored!

 

[Barefootone]

[ QUOTE ]
McGizmo said:
[ QUOTE ]
Best thing is to have the flashlight maker measure the built unit, IMHO, and select out the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's realistic! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif What happens to the ones that are left? How does the pricing work? What is being measured and how? What size of run needs to be made for a reasonable selection of "best". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif this is such a good idea and great suggestion that I think it should be placed in a more important forum than the meager McGizmo forum! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif

As I recall, Gransee had that information on some of the Arcs. Now the Arcs were all of the same design and flavor. Might be a tad more difficult to go this route on custom builds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif Do you suppose measuring and charting each light was part of Peter's formula for success? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Newbie, some ideas look great on paper but they suffer reality shock when implimentation is attempted.

On another note, I am amazed to see so much discussion about color tint again! With some very few exceptions, I have yet to see a LuxIII that I felt was "out of bounds" due to a tint issue! Certainly the tint varries and can be readily seen in the pressence of ambient or additional light but is this a real problem? It seems that perhaps reality will never meet the expectations set by some within this forum. As the product improves, the expectations will just rise above. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Woe to us poor slobs who have to try to work with what we have on hand! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

In the interest of full disclosure, the lights that I build are ultimately deficient and faulty. There are numerous flaws and obvious shortcomings to them. They are no where near perfection and never will be. From a certain point of reference, they are nothing more than ca ca. In my defense, they usually do work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> </font>
Don,
I'm surprised at you, you cheated me on my last buy from you, I didn't get my portion of ca ca /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif with my Aleph 1&2. Although it sure is a BRIGHT SUCKER with a nice Bluish/White can I say tint it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif.
IMHO I own no lights that are tint deficient enough not to have 3/6 volts of Lithium power applied to their + & - terminals.
Keep-em bright in the night /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/au.gif,
Jeff

 

[Kiessling]

Agreed on the tint issue ... LuxIII seems very good here. Not perfect of course, but it usually won't matter much.

It will be interesting to see how the LuxIV will do in this department.

And yeah ... like the idea of the builder measuring each light before selling it ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bernie

 

[McGizmo]

I fired up a U bin X1 last night at 1000 mA in a prototype and from what I saw and measured, it was marginally brighter that the T's I have been using and approaching the limits of "good" and acceptable tint as I have come to appreciate with the T's I have been building with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif On the other hand, I have a proto with a UY0J that I got from Chris (Orb) and it is measurably brighter and of the blue/white tint that one would expect.

The lottery is still alive and the one thing you can count on is if you set your expectations high enough, you will be let down and disappointed! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

 

[Bogus1]

Wouldn't there be an associated reduction in heat generated by a U bin or high performing T bin that is actually producing more lumens? How substantial might that be within the normal range of binning? The heat of these fully driven lights still seems a considerable concern to me. I have few lights that are bright enough for me that I can feel comfortable leaving on high without hand cooling them. With the push for smaller lights driven hard this seems critical. It would seem you get the best of both worlds, more output and/or runtime and less heat.

 

[McGizmo]

Bogus1,

I believe you are correct in so far as energy converted to light is not energy converted to heat. However a 15% increase in lumens does not mean a 15% decrease in heat. I don't know where these LED's are in terms of typical efficiency but I suspect that the lion's share of energy is not coming out the front end as light. I am coming to realize and be honest with myself, more and more and finding that sufficient light can be had by not driving these lights nearly so hard! With two or multi stage output, you can have the full power when needed but for my uses, I don't need it that often or for long if I do. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

 

[Bogus1]

Perhaps I am a fringe user. Where I live there is no artificial light outside unless I ceate it myself. If I pitch a tent in my front yard I am camping. In the "wilds" there is as of yet no pocket light that serves all my needs on a regular basis. In that regard, the less heat, the better runtime, the more flood and the more throw for me the better. I still use my lights on low half the time though. Of course I could be contented and live by oil lamps, and I suppose there are enthusiasts doing that as well /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

 

[McGizmo]

Bogus1,

Cool! It sounds like you are in an environment where you can take advantage and draw upon the full dynamic range of illumination tools!

The selection of a flashlight for casual user is based primarily on need where as the selection of a flashlight by a flashaholic is based on "want" in addition to need. While on Maui, I have the time to walk around and enjoy "quality dark" and make observations I can't back at home. With no moon or under the cover of clouds, one can navigate easily with low levels of luminious output. These needs are met with little effort or demand for power. On the other hand, if I want to know something about what is up 50 yards ahead, it takes a powerful beam since the only available light is that which I provide. In an urban envrioment, one needs power to overcome ambient light on one hand and yet at times needs just enough additional light for "fill".

On Maui, when I was armed with just a 1x123-20mm reflector light and not an additional larger, further throwing light as well, there were times when curiosity demanded answers and I had to walk up to get closer to the target of interest. If it's not possible or practical to move closer to the target, a light with further reach is called for.

I had a SF Beamshaper on the small light and it has two drive levels of 29 mA and 450 mA. With the beam shaper and low level, I could always see where I was walking and where my feet were going. With the beam shaper and high level, I could expand my area of awareness far enough to anticipate what was coming and at a glance see alternative paths. With the beamshaper popped off and on low level, I could focus in on areas of interest, close at hand, with a spotlight, as it were. With beamshaper off and high level, I had more than ample spill for the near ground as well as penetration into significant distances with the spot beam. This light met all of my needs if not an ocassional want. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was not in hostile territory nor was I in need of proper illumination or identification of more distant targets.

Back to topic, a U bin Luxeon in this example could enhance one of two ways. At the same levels of drive, I could have more light at my disposal and presumably even less heat generated; the heat not really a problem. I could set the drive levels lower to provide the same light output with a gain in runtime as well as efficacy. Other considerations aside, a U bin is inherently better than a T bin. Other considerations in hand, price and availability, a U bin may not be desired or required. A U bin's luminious advantage will not overcome an improper choice of optic, drive level or many other considerations in the complete light. In some designs and priority sets, the Vf or color tint of the LED may play a more significant role than the flux of the LED.

The vast majority of light users have been well served without benefit or knowledge of bin classifications or even awareness of their existance! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

 

[BentHeadTX]

If I was building a LuxeonIII light, I would spend the extra $$ on the U bin everything else being the same. BUT! If I had the choice of a TWAH or a UWAL, I would go with the TWAH for the lower voltage and less heat produced.

I have not built a light that uses a LuxeonIII so I can't speak accurately about them. I do have three lights that all run the R2H LuxeonI though. Here are the lights and the tints I see:

Minimag BB500 Warm, white and bright

Minimag BB500 Slightly bluish white but brighter than EDC BB500

Mag 2D Madmax+ Slightly bluish white and driven at around 800mA.

The other R bin I have is a microilluminator with R3J. The color is warm, even slightly yellowish and bright for being driven at 155mA.

Now laying down all four of the lights with my WX1S LuxeonV nFlex Mag (thanks again for the WX1S cy!) I would say the light that jumps out and screams WHITE! is the WX1S LuxeonV to be followed by my minimag EDC and microilluminator. The 2D Mag and minimag have a slight HID like tint to them.

Now take away the other lights and use them by themselves, they all look white to me. For me anyway, as long as the bins are decent I can't really see a noticable difference between tints. The difference shows up under comparison.

Now that my mods require multiple outputs, the higher bins will allow longer run times and cooler operation. I find the nFlex WX1S 8AA Mag is generally used at the bottom 3 settings with occasional full blast operation. If I was running a U bin LuxV, I would set the output higher to get the same light and less runtime from the batteries (and more heat)

At least for LuxeonV use, the high bin/low voltage ones are worth the extra bucks to prevent heat damage over time.

 

[GarageBoy]

This is odd...my SX1K roguesoul is purplish,while my old mag was greenish. (nice shade of green, btw)
My favorite is still Y0 (HID blue)

 

[NewBie]

Has anyone been plotting the CIE coordinates of the various K2 LEDs?

I'm curious as to where they are falling within the bins, expecially in reference to the Lux III.