Philips 4' T8 LED retrofit lamps

PhotonWrangler

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Yesterday I was at the "orange" DIY store where I noticed that they were selling Philips 4' T8 LED retrofit tubes (17w, 2100 lumens) for 10 bucks. I saw the 5000k version there, and their website says they also have a 4000k version for the same price. I asked one of the employees why they were so inexpensive compared to the other retrofit bulbs that were in the $30-$50 range. He wasn't sure. I almost snagged a couple of the bulbs but something told me to wait.

When I got home I looked them up on the store's website, and reading through the customer reviews it appears that these retrofit bulbs don't work correctly on a number of ballasts, including the kind I have in one of our fixtures. It looks like Philips might be dumping these for this reason.

I'm still toying with the idea of picking some of these up and finding an inexpensive ballast for them. I'm thinking they'd be a good fit for a cold garage in the wintertime, where regular fluorescents don't work that well. It wouldn't be the most efficient fixture compared to a native LED design, but it's still about half the current consumption of regular fluorescent bulbs of the same length.

Your thoughts?
 
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degarb

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Yeah, they might save money on the light portion of the electricity, but probably not once I factor in the extra electric I would use by hooking up an mp3 player and speaker to play a loop of the buzzing sound that I, otherwise, would be sorely missing. Then again, they may already be offering these in the "retro-buzz" "nostalgia bulb" edition. Or, might I suggest, the retro "greenish hue" (low cri) edition, to remind me of my high school days in the 1980s.

Are these the precursor to their promised inexpensive 200 lpw lamp level efficiency, that was to hit in 2015? No glass in these, like the filament led bulbs?
 
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made in china

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My thoughts? WTH would anyone want to buy retrofit lamps that REQUIRE a ballast? Let alone, a SPECIFIC ballast?? Yeah I saw those a few weeks ago. They have a very specific ballast requirement, and none of the reviewers seemed to be having luck with them.

I prefer the direct wire bulbs where hot is one end of the lamp and neutral is the other. Is it really so difficult to re-wire a fixture? If for sentimental value you can always leave the ballast in the fixture and keep some bulbs in storage in case you ever want to "go back".

Which brings me to...when are they gonna offer colored LED retrofits? Like BLB?? Gold?? etc..
 

PhotonWrangler

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The direct wire bulbs are much pricier. I'm sure they'll come down over time, but this seems to be a narrow window of opportunity to jump into this. I think the bottom line is that I need to do some more research on ballasts.

Degarb: Retro-buzz, lol. Yeah almost every library I've been in has at least one of those annoying ballasts.
 

yuandrew

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I bought two to try out last December and have been using them in my "80's kitchen" fluorescent ceiling (The ceiling in the kitchen drops down a foot compared to the rest of the house and there are three 4' fluorescent strip lights above translucent panels in an oak frame).

They mainly run off an instant-start electronic ballast* which I already had from a previous T8 conversion but there were some programmed-start electronic ballasts also mentioned in a compatibility list. http://www.lighting.philips.com/us_...antFit_Ballast-Compatibility-Guide_4-7-15.pdf

Although rated at a lower lumens than the T8 fluorescent tubes they replaced; the directional nature of the design seems to make them appear similar in brightness viewed from directly below. I did mod mine by taking them apart and re-assembling without the plastic tube leaving the aluminum channel with the LED board exposed and let the one-foot recess and cracked-ice panels do the work of diffusing the light from the now-bare leds. In my case, they actually appear brighter than the one fluorescent I left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG2ydFM014Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDb_Yebf-gg


* At the time, the only ballast-compatible LED "fluorescent tubes" I knew of off the top of my head which worked with "any" ballast were the EverLED which were very expensive. I later saw the Feit-Electric LED fluorescent tubes earlier this summer at the Depot which mentioned working with both magnetic and electronic ballast but I haven't tried those yet.
 

brickbat

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I'm guessing it's 17 watts into the lamp as Philips would have no way of knowing the efficiency or even the design of the ballast that it's being used with.

Makes sense, unless they stated a particular ballast. So, I'm still underwhelmed. The overall efficiency might be pretty bad for these with real-world ballasts. I just don't see the advantage over a run-of-the-mill T8 lamp...
 

PhotonWrangler

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Makes sense, unless they stated a particular ballast. So, I'm still underwhelmed. The overall efficiency might be pretty bad for these with real-world ballasts. I just don't see the advantage over a run-of-the-mill T8 lamp...

The main advantages for me are no UV and works in cold areas.
 

idleprocess

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Makes sense, unless they stated a particular ballast. So, I'm still underwhelmed. The overall efficiency might be pretty bad for these with real-world ballasts. I just don't see the advantage over a run-of-the-mill T8 lamp...
Think about this from the perspective of a tenant in a rented space that likely owns the liability of keeping the light fixtures running but doesn't own said fixtures. If you move any time soon, you have the dilemma of expending additional costly labor to recover your valuable fixtures or abandoning them - which will ruin the financial case for acquiring them in the first place. In most cases, lighting is not a critical factor for your business: they're an operational cost but far from a key operating cost, they need to provide light for general business operations and bulk-market floro tubes provide adequate performance (CRI, efficiency), and they're adequately reliable with an annual re-lamp cycle being more than sufficient.

Fixture swaps are painful and typically require an electrician and can cost as much in labor as the fixture itself. Ballast swaps are less costly, but still require more time and skill than replacing bulbs ... and potentially an electrician in some situations.

The appeal of retrofit tubes is that if you can just swap the tubes like you would during a typical re-lamp, then you ideally pay a one-time cost for light that will ideally go for ~3 years without maintenance, uses less watts for near-identical useful light output, and avoids the need for skilled labor and CAPEX. If you really want to recover them, it's no more involved than a typical re-lamp operation.



I have some perspective on this dilemma since I volunteer at the local maker space and assist with day-to-day operations, including remedying failed lighting fixtures. Despite lighting being one of our bigger operating expenses (something like a third of our electrical consumption), we're not replacing fixtures with LED nor installing LED tubes. First and foremost we're not sufficiently certain of our future at the present location to do anything more than maintain fixtures. If we do move in the future, our volunteer labor pool will be hard-pressed to successfully move key capital equipment (metalshop, woodshop, foundry, electronics lab, 3D printing, servers, etc) as opposed to numerous low-value light fixtures/LED tubes.

The standard makerspace lighting fixture is a quad 48" T12 troffer. We replace blown tubes as we encounter them whenever the ballasts appear to be in good shape. But since the fixtures are old, failing ballasts are all more common and since T12 fixtures can mechanically accommodate T8 tubes, we perform ballast swaps and install new quad-tube electronic ballasts to replace the pair of failed dual-tube magnetic ballasts without major surgery. A full replacement comes in at around $19 ($13 for the ballast and $1.50 for the tubes), so the savings are going to be far more rapid than spending >$10 per drop-in LED tube powered by uncertain magnetic ballasts; direct-AC LED tubes would remove the ballast liability but require just as much effort as a ballast swap.

For lighting that's critical - electronics lab, creative arts area, digital media, etc - there's higher-intensive, high-CRI task lighting. But those are fewer between than the huge fleet of floros we maintain for general lighting which perform quite adequately with humble 40W (T12) or 32W (T8) "daylight" 5000K tubes.

So, yes, I suspect that for many businesses - likely the dominant market for these products - it's going to be a tough sell until the market answers some tough questions, builds in versatility (universal ballast compatibility and ideally also able to operate on direct-AC), and drops the price.

Since we're swapping ballasts anyway, we might experiment at the sub-$10 range in the future on direct-AC tubes once they establish some stability in the market. If they were reliable and saved even more on lighting than the ~20% reduction we're seeing with T8 swaps they might have a future for our organization.
 
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PhotonWrangler

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Idleprocess, that was an excellent analysis. I agree, for most business operations a standard fluorescent troffer falls into the "good enough" category and most people don't even notice the lighting, except for the occasional noisy magnetic ballast. There's another variable that's recently come into the mix - "green" lighting fixtures that turn on and off based on occupancy sensors. In the short term it appears to be a smart thing, turning off lamps in empty rooms. However for some areas that have a lot of transient traffic but no seats (hallways), I've seen the constant on/off cycles burning through fluorescent tubes like crazy. Fluorescent lamps really don't like to be turned on and off a lot. So This might save on electricity , but it drives the relamping costs way up, maybe 3x the normal relamping frequency. And while you're saving carbon on electricity, you're burning more fuel by sending the maintenance crews to the burned out bulbs more often, and you're dumping more mercury into the landfill. This is one case where LED retrofit tubes would make sense to me.

And kudos to you for volunteering at a makerspace! :rock: We need more of these facilities to get people interested in the sciences.
 

idleprocess

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Idleprocess, that was an excellent analysis. I agree, for most business operations a standard fluorescent troffer falls into the "good enough" category and most people don't even notice the lighting, except for the occasional noisy magnetic ballast. There's another variable that's recently come into the mix - "green" lighting fixtures that turn on and off based on occupancy sensors. In the short term it appears to be a smart thing, turning off lamps in empty rooms. However for some areas that have a lot of transient traffic but no seats (hallways), I've seen the constant on/off cycles burning through fluorescent tubes like crazy. Fluorescent lamps really don't like to be turned on and off a lot. So This might save on electricity , but it drives the relamping costs way up, maybe 3x the normal relamping frequency. And while you're saving carbon on electricity, you're burning more fuel by sending the maintenance crews to the burned out bulbs more often, and you're dumping more mercury into the landfill. This is one case where LED retrofit tubes would make sense to me.

Occupancy sensors are squirrelly in my limited experience. All too often they're deployed with little more than a function check and no real plan for operation. Most of the time they're not sensitive enough and will turn out the lights in an occupied room so long as no one walks right past the sensor or otherwise moves about with more animation than is usual in an office environment every ~5 minutes.

In primary corridors occupancy sensors strike me as an iffy proposition regardless of the cycling sensitivity of your lighting. Primary corridors need to be navigable to employees that have spent their entire working lives at the location and first-time visitors alike. Even when the corridor is unoccupied, it's beneficial to be able to look down it - especially to observe important navigational points such as exits, intersections, and other hazards. If your lighting system were smart enough to simply dim lighting down to minimal levels or only shut off lighting in areas between critical junctures during periods of inactivity, it might be serviceable. But unlike a typical office/conference room/storage room occupancy sensor, your corridor occupancy sensors will need to be numerous and on the ball whenever someone enters the corridor from the likely numerous entrances.

I can see more value in secondary corridors (such as maintenance corridors) or other areas rarely-trafficked, and only by those familiar with the facility; never by visitors or the general public as a matter of policy. But given the nature of work that occurs in these areas, I wonder if the simple light switch isn't a better idea.

And kudos to you for volunteering at a makerspace! :rock: We need more of these facilities to get people interested in the sciences.

Thanks, although the Dallas Maker Space is really more about shopcraft and engineering than it is sciences.

I depleted our supply of ballasts and tubes today (5 fixture swaps) - and they already thoughtfully bought more from the local wholesaler...
 

PhotonWrangler

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In primary corridors occupancy sensors strike me as an iffy proposition regardless of the cycling sensitivity of your lighting. Primary corridors need to be navigable to employees that have spent their entire working lives at the location and first-time visitors alike. Even when the corridor is unoccupied, it's beneficial to be able to look down it - especially to observe important navigational points such as exits, intersections, and other hazards. If your lighting system were smart enough to simply dim lighting down to minimal levels or only shut off lighting in areas between critical junctures during periods of inactivity, it might be serviceable. But unlike a typical office/conference room/storage room occupancy sensor, your corridor occupancy sensors will need to be numerous and on the ball whenever someone enters the corridor from the likely numerous entrances.

I couldn't agree more on this. The hallway occupancy sensor I'm thinking of was located in such a spot that I had to climb a small set of stairs in relative darkness before I got within range of it to set it off. I frequently had to pull out my flashlight to navigate those stairs safely, particularly in the wintertime when I'm wearing a heavier coat and not radiating a lot of heat towards the sensor. I don't think they thought this one through all the way.

As far as sensors turning the lights off too soon, there's a newer type of sensor that will trigger on motion-with-heat but will stay on as long as it senses a pool of localized heat. I'm not sure how this works but it makes much more sense for offices and particularly for restrooms. I was in a restroom once that had an occupancy sensor on it, and it timed out while I was in there, plunging me into complete darkness. And I didn't have a flashlight with me at the time (this happened in pre-CFP days).

Thanks, although the Dallas Maker Space is really more about shopcraft and engineering than it is sciences.

Engineering is a science, and it's one of the fields that we are badly lacking in. Anything that gets kids interested in STEM is a wonderful thing. Besides, you can make some really cool stuff with these skills. :cool:
 

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Because I like experimenting, I've retrofitted 5 ea, T8, 2-lamp Fluorescent and 4 each, 4-lamp T-8 Fluorescent fixtures in my kitchen and garage. I did a lot of reading and settled on the Sylvania 73108 and 73368 kits which contain 5000K lamps. These are the complete rewire retrofit kits, new 2 and 4 channel drivers. I chose these for two reasons. First, why leave a ballast in-place that will need replacing in the future at which time, they may not be available or may be expensive with the advent of cheaper LED kits in the future. Second, as mentioned, the direct-fit replacement LED tubes all seem to be in the neighborhood of about 2000 Lumens. The Sylvanias are the only kits I could find where the tubes produce 2450 Lumens. I took meter measurements at 12 points in my kitchen before and after replacement. As it happens, 6 of the eight T8 Fluorescent tubes in my small kitchen were not more than two months old so Lumens output was near new. When all is said and done, with measurements taken at the same time of day in the exact same spots after at least 10 minutes of warm up time, I saw a minimum of a 28% increase in metered light despite a drop of about 350 rated Lumens per tube. This, I'm sure due to all of the light in the new tubes being directed down/nearly down as opposed to a 360 degree projection in the Fluorescents. Some spots measured as high as a 33% increase.

The best price I found for the 4-channel kits was $158 plus $5 shipping, no tax at faucet farms dot com. Yes, $41.50 per tube is expensive but I got a net 25% increase in light and am saving 54% in power costs. For the 4-lamp fixtures, it's 143 input Watts versus 76 input Watts.

Energy Avenue dot com had the best 2-channel kits at $82 plus about $4.00 per kit shipping.

In a very quiet setting, there IS a slightly audible 60 htz hum noticeable.

I didn't do this because it was economically advantageous - it was not. However, my utility savings will give me a complete project payback in about 9 years based on an average 2 hours per day usage. If that doubles, then the payback is halved.
 
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unterhausen

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I had a tombstone go out in one of my basement shop light fixtures, and needed a bulb, so I got a couple of the Phillips lamps. I had some random electronic ballasts in these fixtures from when they were still fairly uncommon, guessing ~15+ years ago. The Phillips bulbs started right up and they are indistinguishable from what I had. I wonder why they are so cheap. You can get lesser brand direct wire bulbs for about the same price though, but they still cost 2-3x at the big box stores. If I had a costco nearby, I would get their shoplights, $25 on sale right now. But the closest store is 2 hours away.

I wonder how many of the bad reviews stem from the ballasts going bad, that isn't uncommon. I bought some cheap fixtures from Lowes, at least one of the ballasts went bad pretty quickly
 

degarb

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Quote Originally Posted by PhotonWrangler:

"Engineering is a science. "

In what sense?

Big Bang Theory quote:

Howard: Sheldon, as a NASA engineer, I have a working understanding of physics.

Sheldon, the physicist: Yeah, good for you, and don't stop working on it.
 

idleprocess

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Saw the Philips units on the shelves of a Home Despot the other day. Figured they needed to come down by about 50% before thy take the business world by storm.

However, I did see some niches at $10 each - hard-to-reach locations. The makerspace took a long look at moving into another property across the street with a vast open workshop featuring 24' ceilings and a fairly sparse collection of quad T8 fixtures overhead. Even with access to a spiffy powered lift you don't want to be relamping those yearly, so $40 a fixture for ~4 years of operational life is an easy easy sell for any organization in that situation.

Standards are a funny thing. The largest dimensions of any object that can be moved around the world with (relative) ease are just under railcar size. Why are railcars the size they are? Because their width is the approximate width of two horses hitched to a wagon or chariot with comfortable side-to-side margin, dating to at least Roman times; the height probably has a similar correlation and the length is only somewhat more modern - the longest a car can be while still being able to make reasonable turns.

Given the surprising willingness of certain sectors of the market to keep operating what were originally T12 fixtures as T8 fixtures (with new ballasts), I would not be surprised to see this LED tube thing take off just because it's a fairly easy sell as a direct replacement. The ballast-interfacing style will be the first foothold - drop them in and go. But as some of the smaller operators undertake nights-and-weekends / government work projects to go through the only somewhat more involved ballast-removal task, I suspect there will emerge a slowly-emerging market of indigenous direct-AC fixtures. Perhaps some of these "LED tube" producers will introduce dual-mode models. And that in turn might lead floro fixture manufacturers to produce simpler direct-AC fixtures and beat the slow-moving Zhaga standard guys to the punch. Suspect that we'll see basic T12 fixtures in service for more than 50 years should this happen.

The Edison socket has endured for more than a century despite newer tech coming into being. Why not the 48" T12/T8 fixture?
 
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