Random major color shift in HID bulb?

[madrabbitt]

I have a HID retrofit (yes, retrofit, not just drop in upgrade) in my jeep.
I'm using Apexcone 55 watt ballasts, and their bulbs. D2R bulbs, 4300k.

This morning, I turn the headlights on, and after the typical 2-3 second warmup, one of them goes to an purple/pink color with reduced light output.

Just out of nowhere.

Vehicle's electrical system appears to be fine. A good 13.1 volts going into the ballast on the affected side (13.23 volts on the other side, guess which one is closer to the battery/alternator)

I'm having my friend back home overnight me a set of spare bulbs for now, assuming its a bulb failure.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

You could trade the bulbs between the sides of the vehicle to see if the color change follows the capsule or stays with the ballast.

I'm glad you stayed with 4300K, but the maximum nominal wattage of HIDs is 35, not 55.

 

[Illum]

even in portable HID lamps, on occiasion when the gas in the quartz capsule is migrating around...an occiasional flow between the arcing electrodes will give you a weird color, but its temperory. If the color was a dramatic shift and it stays that way you might want to take it out and have a look at it.

 

[MrGman]

It could be that the end of one of the electrodes was consumed or literally fell off into the arc tube cavity and now the arc has to jump a longer gap to the remaining stub of the electrode and draws less current and therefore makes less plasma and puts out much less light. I have seen this in arc tubes I used to test. It was easy just to X-ray the lamp assembly and look for broken or consumed electrodes. If so it is literally premature "bulb failure". Since the drive circuit works find and builds high voltage it will continue to jump the larger gap and complete the arc path so you see the light is on but just not making nearly the amount of white light it should as the plasma is controlled by current flow and a longer arc path with limit total current. Are you running a 35 watt arc tube at 55 watts?

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

A quick Googling shows Apexcone to be cheap Chinese garbage. I'd ditch them. If you have a true HID retrofit, with headlamp housings made for an HID lamp, I would switch to OEM ballasts and bulbs.

 

[-Virgil-]

I have a HID retrofit (yes, retrofit, not just drop in upgrade) in my jeep.
I'm using Apexcone 55 watt ballasts, and their bulbs. D2R bulbs, 4300k.

And...how is it you think this is not a drop-in "upgrade"? The only legitimate automotive HID system wattage is 35w. Also, where are we guessing these "Apexcone" bulbs came from? Think carefully before you pick the answer most likely to be correct from the following list:

1. A junk shop in China
2. A junk shop in China
3. A junk shop in China

This morning, I turn the headlights on, and after the typical 2-3 second warmup, one of them goes to an purple/pink color with reduced light output. Just out of nowhere.

C'mon. You cannot expect OE-type performance or durability from kiddy play-toys like the "Apexcone" junk you're using.


("No, no, but...see...my hacked homemade HID headlights are OK because...um...because I really really want to believe they're OK!")

 

[madrabbitt]

You could trade the bulbs between the sides of the vehicle to see if the color change follows the capsule or stays with the ballast.

I'm glad you stayed with 4300K, but the maximum nominal wattage of HIDs is 35, not 55.

I dont even know why i didnt think of that simple troubleshooting step.
It was early in the AM. I'll do that now.

And I got the ballasts for free... however, i've tried 35 watt ballasts with the same bulbs and retrofit, and there is a marked increase in output between the two... i'm sure at the expense of bulb life.

 

[madrabbitt]

And...how is it you think this is not a drop-in "upgrade"? The only legitimate automotive HID system wattage is 35w. Also, where are we guessing these "Apexcone" bulbs came from? Think carefully before you pick the answer most likely to be correct from the following list:

1. A junk shop in China
2. A junk shop in China
3. A junk shop in China



C'mon. You cannot expect OE-type performance or durability from kiddy play-toys like the "Apexcone" junk you're using.


("No, no, but...see...my hacked homemade HID headlights are OK because...um...because I really really want to believe they're OK!")

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you knew what you were talking about. If you're just going to criticize product choices and be an ***, then your participation in my thread is not welcome.
I'm sorry that nobody has stood up to you before, but just because you're an expert in the field, it doesn't mean you get to have a condescending attitude and police everyone else's choices.

Also, welcome to today's technology.
Just because 35 watts is the norm, doesnt mean its the only accepted standard. Most capsules, both name brand and junk, are rated in the 60 watt range, so a 55 watt ballast isnt going to be hurting that capsule more then decreasing the lifespan. Even the big names are putting out higher rated products now, a good example is KC overdriving their capsule at 70 watts in their big-*** lights.

I had a question about why my issue occured, how i could continue to troubleshoot the issue. I normally avoid this forum, specifically because of people like you, but I was hoping i'd get some useful helpful responses.
In case you dont understand what a useful, helpful response is, please review the responses from MrGman, Illum and Alaric Darconville.


The only reason i'm using the cheap apexcone bulbs, is I had one of my original phillips bulbs that I used in the retrofit burnt out, and I havent found a new pair of what i want at a good price, nor have had the time to look. I put in what I had to keep the vehicle in service.

And i'm sorry that the retrofit that i have that is safe, effective, and meets the legal requirements of my jurisdiction doesnt stand up to your exacting standards, but since you like to come off as an entitled ***, your opinion doesnt matter one bit to me.

 

[madrabbitt]

A quick Googling shows Apexcone to be cheap Chinese garbage. I'd ditch them. If you have a true HID retrofit, with headlamp housings made for an HID lamp, I would switch to OEM ballasts and bulbs.

Even without googling them, i could tell you that they are in fact garbage.
The tabs on the bulb base (to lock the D2 connectors on) all broke off the bulbs.
Again, only using them because the bulbs i originally had are not servicable... well one is, but I dont want a mismatched pair.

As for the ballasts, my opinion is slightly higher, I switched to them after one of my OEM nissan ballasts failed.
And since they're digital, potted and filled with epoxy, have very functional heat sinks, drawing a consistent amount of amperage, and are standing up under the conditions that this truck sees, and have performed without a issue for two years... honestly, my opinion of these ballasts are higher then the OEM ones i originally used.

Side note, the ballasts may not be apexcone. They're stamped DDM. I was under the impression that DDM rebrands and distributes apexcone under their private label.
They may, actually be another brand.

The bulbs are apexcone though.

 

[madrabbitt]

Edit:

Ok, i'm going crazy.

Problem is following bulb. Guess i didnt swap them when i thought i did.

Also, the ballast that i plug the bad bulb into has a noticeable whine.

And since a picture is worth a crapload of words:

Notice the obvious decrease in intensity as well as the color change.



And there is a crack in the ceramic insulator on the electrode affected bulb, towards the bottom, but thats the only noticeable defect I can see in the bulb.

 

[MrGman]

the ballast that drives the bad bulb whines now because its having to go to a higher voltage to discharge across the lamp with the broken or consumed electrode which makes sense. It probably didn't whine before or no different than the other one. I am guessing if you switch the bulbs back the ballast that drives the bad bulb will always be the one that ones.

If you shut them down and after the cool off you can see the arc tube directly with some small level of magnification you may see either a piece of electrode floating around inside the arc tube or that one pair of electrodes has a much bigger gap than the other pair from the other lamp.

If you have completely separate ballasts why do you worry about running a mismatched pair of lamps.

And oh by the way, you are definitely running a mismatched pair of lamps now based on loading to the ballasts if what I perceive to be the problem is correct, and it looks like it is. So there is no reason to no put a perfectly good OEM lamp in there and run it.

Overdriving lamps can kill them in a manner not necessarily consistent with simply shortening their life by X percent. Such as what appears to have happened here. So if you really are driving 35 watt rated arc lamps to 55 watts, even if "everyone is doing it" don't expect to simply have a linear shortening of the life. You can get the type of failure you have now or random failure much sooner especially in rough service of a vehicle bouncing around on the road such as your truck as you have alluded to.

 

[-Virgil-]

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you knew what you were talking about.

I do.

If you're just going to criticize product choices

That's what you leave yourself open to when you make poor ones.

your participation in my thread is not welcome.

That's not up to you. If you don't like my posts, you're free not to read them; I will not stop making them.

your opinion doesnt matter one bit to me.

It appears to have mattered enough for you to have spent time and effort responding to it. Just sayin'.

Just because 35 watts is the norm, doesnt mean its the only accepted standard.

Wrong. It is the standard -- both legal and technical. And there are good reasons for it, too. Headlamps are safety devices. They aren't toys. Your arbitrary decision to use a non-spec ballast has real, negative safety consequences for others on the road. You don't appear to care. I'm putting words on a screen; you're thoughtlessly endangering lives. So who's being an ***, then?

Most capsules, both name brand and junk, are rated in the 60 watt range

Not according to the people who actually make them, who know a bit more about it than you seem to.

I had a question about why my issue occured,

And you got the correct answer. Twice, in fact, from two different people.

I normally avoid this forum

So there y'go, problem solved; you won't have pesky truth getting in the way of your hacked headlamps.

I was hoping i'd get some useful helpful responses

You did. It's just that they weren't what you wanted to hear.

The only reason i'm using the cheap apexcone bulbs, is I had one of my original phillips bulbs that I used in the retrofit burnt out, and I havent found a new pair of what i want at a good price, nor have had the time to look.

All over eBay, dude. You've spent more time posting and discussing this question than you would've spent getting a new proper bulb in hand.

And i'm sorry that the retrofit that i have that is safe, effective, and meets the legal requirements of my jurisdiction

Your understanding of the legal requirements appears faulty.

 

[MrGman]

I found lots of information on the web about HID lights. This little tidbit was very interesting,

http://hidexpert.com/faq_text.html
<H2>Are these XENON HID light systems street legal?


Every jurisdiction has its own rules and regulations governing the use of automotive lighting. XENON HID lighting systems that are supplied with the vehicles from the factory are DOT approved. NO XENON HID conversion kit available from any source is DOT approved if installed outside of the factory. Moreover, in the U.S, this is not street legal for use on public roads.



There are issues with the beam pattern not being restricted in HID lights that are put into headlight housing/reflectors/assemblies designed for halogen lamps, that may be a nuisance and cause glare problems for oncoming traffic among other issues that I found and know about. One must ask oneself if they are behaving donkeyish in using such lights on a "retrofit" kit. Having premature lamp failure may be the best thing that could happen to these lights. But I may be wrong.

 

[Lightdoctor]

The OP is probably a 20 something moron who hasn't experienced what the world is about yet. (Your outlook on life changes drastically between 20 and 35, and then you'll find out how rude and obnoxios you really were when the 20 somethings in the future put some overpowered LED in there HID buckets and it blinds your *** and you start yelling at these know nothing kids.........)

 

[Hilldweller]

The OP is probably a 20 something moron who hasn't experienced what the world is about yet. (Your outlook on life changes drastically between 20 and 35, and then you'll find out how rude and obnoxios you really were when the 20 somethings in the future put some overpowered LED in there HID buckets and it blinds your *** and you start yelling at these know nothing kids.........)

Did you ever wonder if you'd want 8000K HID headlights if you woke up 20 years old tomorrow?
Scary stuff.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Also, the ballast that i plug the bad bulb into has a noticeable whine.

first basic test is to swap left ballast output to the right lamp and vice versa.

eg normally = LB -> LL, RB -> RL
basic ballast test = LB -> RL, RB -> LL

it beats swapping out bulbs and is much faster assuming that you're using quick disconnects.

if the ballast is dodgey it will happen on the swap.

it can also be an issue if you are using incorrect gauge wire from the ballast to the lamps and/or if the ballasts in combo with dodgey wiring are too far from the lamps.

cheap and nasty harness issues are not uncommon unfort on low budget HID kits etc....

 

[TorchBoy]

Thanks to everyone who has posted; I've learned a fair bit and occasionally been entertained too. No, I would NOT want 8 kK HIDs if I woke up 20 yo tomorrow (or later today, since it's now after midnight). When I first looked into getting some as driving lights Hella Predator units were NZ$2,000 each.

Every jurisdiction has its own rules and regulations governing the use of automotive lighting. XENON HID lighting systems that are supplied with the vehicles from the factory are DOT approved. NO XENON HID conversion kit available from any source is DOT approved if installed outside of the factory. Moreover, in the U.S, this is not street legal for use on public roads.

Does that mean that in the USA even a full retrofit (with 35 W HID bulbs) isn't actually legal because they weren't fitted in the factory? I thought it was only the drop-in replacements that weren't legal. Or is a full retrofit OK if the particular vehicle has them factory fitted as an option and those particular HID units are used?

 

[Alaric Darconville]

In case you dont understand what a useful, helpful response is, please review the responses from MrGman, Illum and Alaric Darconville.

Yet my own helpful response included the 35W maximum (perhaps I could have stressed *legal* maximum). Admittedly, I deliberately withheld my other judgements about your retrofit in my quest to point out a decidedly obvious troubleshooting step.

in response to Scheinwerfermann
And i'm sorry that the retrofit that i have that is safe, effective, and meets the legal requirements of my jurisdiction doesnt stand up to your exacting standards, but since you like to come off as an entitled ***, your opinion doesnt matter one bit to me.

It might approximate effective, but it's not safe, and with its wild performance variations (bulb color changing drastically) it's easy to say that it doesn't meet the legal requirements of your jurisdiction, unless by happenstance it falls within the requirements before going haywire. Because the photometric equipment is expensive and takes training to use it, I'm pretty sure most of the "retrofits" we see are untested and don't come close to the standards of FMVSS 108.

Also, welcome to today's technology.

Which, despite technical advancements in the way of marketing buzzwords such as "digital", must still meet standards established many years ago. The standards weren't put in place to make your car "totes uncool", nor were they put in place to get you killed driving at night-- they were put in place so that everyone could have safe, adequate lighting at reasonable speeds at night without blinding one another or themselves.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you knew what you were talking about.

I had to LOL at that one. Reminded me of the kid on Toyotanation that responded to me like this:

from another message board
"no offence, but im (sic) not looking for facts. im (sic) looking for answers"

Truly, though, Scheinwerfermann. DOES know what he's talking about. Stick around and read more by him. He has a phenomenal amount of experience in this subject.

It's people like him that draw me to this forum; I see so many other vehicle enthusiast forums where cool, agreeable people in a helpful tone are proponents of the most ridiculous vehicle lighting mods. They're so supportive, so congenial, and so very wrong.

Science is not a democracy and truth is not a popularity contest.

 

[MrGman]

"Science is not a democracy and truth is not a popularity contest."

Amen to that, and could you please beat that into Al Gores head as well.

 

[MrGman]

Thanks to everyone who has posted; I've learned a fair bit and occasionally been entertained too. No, I would NOT want 8 kK HIDs if I woke up 20 yo tomorrow (or later today, since it's now after midnight). When I first looked into getting some as driving lights Hella Predator units were NZ$2,000 each.


Does that mean that in the USA even a full retrofit (with 35 W HID bulbs) isn't actually legal because they weren't fitted in the factory? I thought it was only the drop-in replacements that weren't legal. Or is a full retrofit OK if the particular vehicle has them factory fitted as an option and those particular HID units are used?

I took that from a website claiming expertise on the subject. I am not an expert on the legalities of these things. It appears self explanatory. If I were to take it at face value, if the factory didn't install them, its not street legal. That's not an official legal opinion, that's my "understanding" of the language. Getting caught is a whole other issue.