Rechargable 123 review thread.

[jtice]

I just realized, that this thread was actually, for the original 4V cells.

My runtimes are for the newer 3V cells! oops /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif

 

[Doug S]

Has anyone measured the maximum charging current that these chargers can deliver into a discharged cell? I'm curious. Same question about the earlier JSB unprotected cell chargers.

 

[Lux Luthor]

Not exactly. I measured ~167ma at the charger powered by 9 NiMH batteries, over which time the voltage across the batteries dipped from 12.6V to 11.7V. This is with the newer cells/charger, and from a starting point of where UV had kicked in for both cells. The total charging process took almost 6 hours.

Not sure how much this helps.

 

[JonSidneyB]

Keep the comments comming. I want more for the maker of these cells to see.

Thanks
Guys

 

[KevinL]

I've been carrying Project C2-90 for a couple of weeks now and whatever the R123 cells lack in looks they make up for in terms of performance. Since they're rechargeable I have no qualms about using the light (my favorite kind of light too, the guilt free kind), and I've put my R123s through quite a few discharges doing runtime tests.

So far, so good. I really enjoy the performance of the SF P90 lamp, with 30 minutes runtime. Longer runtime would be good, too - more is always appreciated. Highly recommended to anybody who wants all the power of a rechargeable 105 lumen Surefire in a 2-cell package.

A summary of my other runtime tests can be found here.

 

[flashlight]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bumpit.gif

 

[illmatic]

For the first few cycles of charging and recharging these, I've had no problems. However, just recently one of my batteries, won't accept a charge until i put the other battery on the charger. This has happened the last two times i tried to charge this battery.

Basically, the red light won't turn on when i put the battery on...i take it out, put the other one(which still has a charge in it) in the charger, green light turns red...take that one out and put back the discharged one and then it charges(light is red). so my question is, why is this particular battery not charging?

 

[Lux Luthor]

I've had the same behavior if one of the cells has had UV protection kick in, and if it doesn't register a voltage afterwards. For some reason after UV kicks in, sometimes the cell registers a voltage after a while, other times it needs a "bump".

I suspect the charger may be designed so as to not charge a cell if the voltage is too low, or perhaps if it simply doesn't detect any voltage at all. Based on KevinL's recent experience, though, that may be a good thing - atleast as far as the charger is concerned.

 

[ledy]

My second set also has a one short and one long cell. The short one wouldn't charge until I put a wade of aluminum onto the end of it. This hack is also needed to get it to run in my ARC4.

 

[djpark]

[ QUOTE ]
Lux Luthor said:
I've had the same behavior if one of the cells has had UV protection kick in, and if it doesn't register a voltage afterwards. For some reason after UV kicks in, sometimes the cell registers a voltage after a while, other times it needs a "bump".

I suspect the charger may be designed so as to not charge a cell if the voltage is too low, or perhaps if it simply doesn't detect any voltage at all. Based on KevinL's recent experience, though, that may be a good thing - atleast as far as the charger is concerned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been testing 2 of the JSB123 4.2V cells a while. I had initial problem with one and now both, similar to what is reported.

The charger is just a plain switching DC-DC converter with some resistor options to set the voltage. Both battery cell holders are joined together parallel. The green led is always on and the red led is turned on according to the current flow -- start bright and getting dimmer as charge current drops.

Though there is no intelligent controlling of the charging, there seems nothing wrong which is preventing some battery charging. The battery contact is actually weak and one of them broke and dropped out as I was trying to open further to provide contact to the short batteries, so I added a spring and it is perfect fit now.

I suspect that there are some major design defects (?) in the protection circuit built in the battery.

First, the circuit seems cutting off the connection when the current flow hit more than 1A. Not exactly 1A from any measurement, but it worked fine with light which takes below 0.9A and also my 0.9A discharge test with resistor, but when I dropped in Arc-LS (modded) which takes 1.2A from other R123, the over current protection cuts off the battery.

The battery capacity is roughly 550mAh and it is almost 2.2C, but it is disappointing that I can't use in it.

Secondly, the bigger problem is that once the discharge protection circuit cuts off the battery internal connection, it is REALLY hard to reset again.

Pila has a similar problem and needs rather high charging voltage to reset the circuit and start charging. It is no problem with Pila charger with 4.5V output, but it doesn't start charging with LTC-4054 charger giving 4.2V output and needs to be reset by applying high voltage short while before charging.

But these protected rechargeable 123 cells is very sturbon and refuses to reset and doesn't accept charging at all.

Earlier I managed to reset the first cell which was locked by putting in the charger and adding parallel load with a resistor for short while. Now both cells don't accept charge after lockout by high current.

The li-ion battery protection chip has 2 separate channel for charge and discharge on one line. When discharge circuit is cut off, the charging circuit is still connected and accept the charge and vice versa whereas the JSB123 doesn't seem to work the same manner.

I guess i will open one cell to see what sort of circuit is in use.

-- dj

 

[djpark]

While opening of one of the cell, I noticed the internal thread of + supply to the protection circuit is broken. I am not sure if it is cut while opening or it was already boekn at factory and just touching only.

If it happened earlier (before I open it), it may well explain why the protection circuit is not functioning properly.

I will try after I solder it back.

-- dj

 

[KevinL]

I just tested the R123s in my U2. I'm using one Surefire Z20 battery spacer and ONE R123. Two R123s will direct drive the U2 and I refuse to test that configuration - my U2's more valuable than any rechargeable.

Level 6 does not run in regulation - you can see the flicker. Level 5 does.

Very soon, lithium rechargeables are gonna be /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banned2.gif from my lights. (gotta admit I still love NiMH - AAs are tremendous bang for the buck, size, and weight!)

Wonder if PK is gonna come up with a rechargeable kit for the U2 that will make me change my mind. If anybody can do it, the Photon King is the most likely.

 

[Ray_of_Light]

Dj,

you will find one 5N20V inside the JSB123.
Mine works little different from yours; it resets even at 4.1 Volts when the undervoltage protection is activated.
If the wire (in reality, it is a flexible PCB) is broken, the battery will not supply any voltage, nor will recharge.

Kevin,

why ban Li-Ions from your lights? The new KL1 run for two hrs in full regulation with one 168B.
The TW4/Mc2S is a small wonderful light monster when using the JSB123; same with the Arc4.

The JSB123 and one dummy cell is not enough to drive the U2 at level 1; the the PCB inside the JSB 123 has a unusually tiny track that produces too much voltage sag at 1.4 A. The fat 168A is perfect, even if not in full regulation at level 1 (the max one). Not noticeable at naked eye.
A 1.2 Ohm 1/2 watt resistor makes possible to use the MN01 bulb with the 123.
Two JSB123 works fine in the Inova X0.

Anthony

 

[djpark]

[ QUOTE ]
Ray_of_Light said:
Dj,

you will find one 5N20V inside the JSB123.
Mine works little different from yours; it resets even at 4.1 Volts when the undervoltage protection is activated.

If the wire (in reality, it is a flexible PCB) is broken, the battery will not supply any voltage, nor will recharge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both cells I have do not accept the charge or discharge after lock out with 1.2A current.

I am pretty sure the film thread for the positive power supply was broken while I was opening the cell. When I soldered it back, it didn't work. But when I replaced with a new wire, it works fine now. It works with 1.2A current, charge well after under voltage cut off.

I wonder if the film thread was weak or the controller chip needed some kind of reset...

I opened the other cell. Tried to open the protection circuit to find the chip for spec, but the whole thing came off pcb. It is shame it is epoxied.

I presume 8 pin msop is FET, SOT23-5 is 5N20V? Any information on this chip?

Somehow the behavior of this protection circuit seems not consistant from different users' postings. It also requires many parts to work along. May be the design is not only for regular li-ion operation but also for different voltage setting as well.

I will modify the board using TI's UCC3952 which requires just 1 cap to work.

-- dj

[EDIT/ADD]

I realized that the bare cell itself of the second battery is kind of funny.

It has 4.05V open voltage, but once a load is connected, it drops to 0 immediately -- no current coming out. When it is put on the charger, the charger think it is fully charged because there is no current flowing into the cell.

This happens from the cell directly, not through the protection circuit. It looks as if the cell is dead or no internal connection or mega ohm internal resistance. Time to consider it is dead?

Too bad, it has been used for charging and run time test only a few times. Either the protection circuit or the battery itself, the manufacturing quality control may be an issue to look at.

 

[Ray_of_Light]

Dj,

the only problem with JSB123 (3.7 V) is the poor heat shrink wrap, that deteriorates fast and kills the flex PCB. With that connection open, any amount of reverse charge, or even some electrostatic, will kill the MOSFET. The controller is a six pin GAOZ, using two caps and two resistors to set the threshold voltages. The circuit is electrically designed well but executed badly, since the PCB track carring the total load current is only 1 mm (0.05") wide, and the physical negative termination IS the other layer of the PCB.
I replaced the flex PCB and the shink wrap, and all my JSB123 are now showing excellent performance.
For shrink wrap (which is an irradiated polyoleofin), I used the one removed from SF cells, since it is shrunk only 50%, so will shrink again when heated. Duracell, Energizer and Maxell wraps are already shrunk to the max and cannot be reused.

Anthony

 

[Mags]

Is it okay to run these in a LongBow Micra?

 

[NightLite]

I run my JSB123 in my G2 with BOG 3W and my QIII, the run time is around 30 minutes and the output is good. I like it so much I ordered another set!