LightSward
Flashlight Enthusiast
Nice job. Salt Water Submersion with fan you insulated is awesome..! Good work...I didn't think anything like this could work so well in salt water. Again nice work!
The Nightsword project
- Thread starter get-lit
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
get-lit
Flashlight Enthusiast
I've used this same fan for other tests before insulating it, and it used to shut off with just a few drops of water.
The Xstage lamp arrived but I have to wait to receive another nut for the anode mount. It calls for 27mm thread but it's actually fine thread.
Also received word that the 500W lamp is done and being shipped.
The Xstage lamp arrived but I have to wait to receive another nut for the anode mount. It calls for 27mm thread but it's actually fine thread.
Also received word that the 500W lamp is done and being shipped.
Did you sort of give up on this ever being a production design? Sounds like you might have leaned towards personal experimentation over the long run, possibly? Which I get, totally. A lot of production designs become quite harder to pursue, especially when some of us have never-ending OCD like tweaking natures of designs. Sometimes in our mind it's just never good enough to actually produce! Just another screw here and...wait, there too. What year is it again? 
Did you sort of give up on this ever being a production design? Sounds like you might have leaned towards personal experimentation over the long run, possibly? Which I get, totally. A lot of production designs become quite harder to pursue, especially when some of us have never-ending OCD like tweaking natures of designs. Sometimes in our mind it's just never good enough to actually produce! Just another screw here and...wait, there too. What year is it again?
Wow, I just realized that I've been following this thread for 5 years. I will never have an actual need for something like this but I love seeing people push the boundaries of tech. No matter to me whether getlit produces more than one of these, I've enjoyed the ride he's provided. Hopefully we will get to see him complete this project.
get-lit
Flashlight Enthusiast
Sorry about not responding, I hadn't received notification of responses here. I've been progressing slowly and quietly because I've been still coping with the renewed issue of startup time. I've gotten a lot of outside feedback about the >=1 minute startup being a HUGE issue for a portable handheld searchlight, while preferred to have instant full output even with roughly half the efficiency. As mentioned, this would mean doing away with Mercury and going with Xenon. This would make for a considerable change in direction for the project and would require a fully custom designed power supply to accommodate small size, light weight, efficiency and low voltage operation. That alone is a costly and time consuming venture, but very worth it. On the plus side, still the methodologies remain the same and most of the testing is complete.
I've compared the top Xenon candidates I've had in mind.. The shortest gap Xenon 1600W, the XSTAGE 2000W, and finally the Ushio version of the elusive XBO 500W/RC OFR. The Ushio version is the UXL-502HS-O. Below are the luminous intensities of the current Mercury lamp, the Xenon 1600W, and the XSTAGE 2000W. These photos are taken though several welding filters...
(EDIT: Note that the arc gaps are not the same as the luminous areas. Luminous areas for Xenon are shorter than the gaps.)
It's been exciting to test these and see the results. One thing this illustrates is that the manufacturer-listed luminous area specs are spot on for length, but not for width. In an axial orientation, tighter width is much more important due to how the source is geometrically transposed to the image.
I didn't have the UXL-502HS-O on hand at the time of this comparison, but after firing it up I realized it's not quite the output I'm looking for. Although it is a very intense spot, it's not enough output overall compared to the others.
I was surprised to see how well the shortest gap Xenon 1600W fared next to these Mercury lamps I'd been working with. And clearly the XSTAGE 2000W has an advantage over the 1600W even when driven at the same output. But the 1600W has the advantage of operating as low as 1150W, which makes it more versatile. The 1600W can be operated from 1150W to 1725W, while the XSTAGE 2000W can be operated from 1610W to 2530W. The 1600W is also noticeably smaller and somewhat lighter. The XSTAGE 2000W is a foot long, which makes the Long Focal Length configuration much more challenging to be weight-balanced in this application. There are also higher wattage XSTAGE lamps, with the 3000W being the most intense of the bunch, but that's surely too much power consumption for a portable handheld. I could do it.. If this were a one-off project, I'd probably go for the XSTAGE 3000W and a 30" reflector, but it wouldn't be practical for the use this project is geared for.
On a final note, there is another newer 1600W Xenon lamp available with even shorter gap and more amperage with less voltage, which should be somewhat on par with the XSTAGE 2000W when driven at the same power. It's the same size as the XSTAGE 2000W but costs $750 while the XSTAGE 2000W costs only $500. I'm not keen on paying more for less. Again the 1600W can be operated at lower power when needed but I'm not sure I want to dump another $750 for testing when I may end up preferring the XSTAGE 2000W anyhow. I may have to give it a go, to be at ease with the final decision.
I could use some feedback whether 1610W minimum power requirement (1750W with PS losses) would be much of a hindrance for a portable handheld. That's just within the use of standard 15A residential, but what about powering from a vehicle, boat, or battery power etc. A 1600W lamp with 1150W minimum may be needed for this purpose.
I've compared the top Xenon candidates I've had in mind.. The shortest gap Xenon 1600W, the XSTAGE 2000W, and finally the Ushio version of the elusive XBO 500W/RC OFR. The Ushio version is the UXL-502HS-O. Below are the luminous intensities of the current Mercury lamp, the Xenon 1600W, and the XSTAGE 2000W. These photos are taken though several welding filters...
(EDIT: Note that the arc gaps are not the same as the luminous areas. Luminous areas for Xenon are shorter than the gaps.)
It's been exciting to test these and see the results. One thing this illustrates is that the manufacturer-listed luminous area specs are spot on for length, but not for width. In an axial orientation, tighter width is much more important due to how the source is geometrically transposed to the image.
I didn't have the UXL-502HS-O on hand at the time of this comparison, but after firing it up I realized it's not quite the output I'm looking for. Although it is a very intense spot, it's not enough output overall compared to the others.
I was surprised to see how well the shortest gap Xenon 1600W fared next to these Mercury lamps I'd been working with. And clearly the XSTAGE 2000W has an advantage over the 1600W even when driven at the same output. But the 1600W has the advantage of operating as low as 1150W, which makes it more versatile. The 1600W can be operated from 1150W to 1725W, while the XSTAGE 2000W can be operated from 1610W to 2530W. The 1600W is also noticeably smaller and somewhat lighter. The XSTAGE 2000W is a foot long, which makes the Long Focal Length configuration much more challenging to be weight-balanced in this application. There are also higher wattage XSTAGE lamps, with the 3000W being the most intense of the bunch, but that's surely too much power consumption for a portable handheld. I could do it
.. If this were a one-off project, I'd probably go for the XSTAGE 3000W and a 30" reflector, but it wouldn't be practical for the use this project is geared for.On a final note, there is another newer 1600W Xenon lamp available with even shorter gap and more amperage with less voltage, which should be somewhat on par with the XSTAGE 2000W when driven at the same power. It's the same size as the XSTAGE 2000W but costs $750 while the XSTAGE 2000W costs only $500. I'm not keen on paying more for less. Again the 1600W can be operated at lower power when needed but I'm not sure I want to dump another $750 for testing when I may end up preferring the XSTAGE 2000W anyhow. I may have to give it a go, to be at ease with the final decision.
I could use some feedback whether 1610W minimum power requirement (1750W with PS losses) would be much of a hindrance for a portable handheld. That's just within the use of standard 15A residential, but what about powering from a vehicle, boat, or battery power etc. A 1600W lamp with 1150W minimum may be needed for this purpose.
Last edited:
Hard to say. It depends a lot on the usage. Did you plan DC input only, 12 or 24 v? Either way, no ordinary vehicle charging system is able to keep up for longer runs, so if you need to install a new charging system, I doubt the cost difference between 1200 and 1700 watt are going to make much difference. If you had AC input option, a 2 kw portable generator would most likely be the cheapest alternative. For stand alone battery power, it all boils down to how much runtime that is needed.
get-lit
Flashlight Enthusiast
Pretty much what I was thinking as well.
Input to be full range 12-80VDC. AC input would be with a separate AC/DC converter. Keeping the conversion as a separate component reduces the size/weight of the system while operating portable on DC power. While on AC power, the size/weight of a separate AC/DC converter doesn't matter much because it doesn't tend to be portable application when using an AC source.
Input to be full range 12-80VDC. AC input would be with a separate AC/DC converter. Keeping the conversion as a separate component reduces the size/weight of the system while operating portable on DC power. While on AC power, the size/weight of a separate AC/DC converter doesn't matter much because it doesn't tend to be portable application when using an AC source.
My power source is still planned to be my 9S/100Ah LiFeP04 battery pack so using 30 Volts as an average, I'd need to move about 66 amps thru the connection cables. My goal is quiet operation. I don't want to have to listen to even a quiet Honda Inverter generator when operating the light. Ultra-fine #8 would probably do fine in this scenario. I could also add 4 cells to the pack and reduce Amps to about 50. I'm just thinking about physically holding the light during use and not having to deal with #4's and all the associated weight and bulk.
If I remember correctly, you were somewhere in the area of 70,000 Lumens using the 1000 Watt Mercury lamp, right? What are the Lumen numbers of the pure Xenon lamps you mention above? Is there a compromise Mercury lamp that would provide a 5-10 second warm-up? That, for me, is something easily lived with. Taking into consideration the necessary power supply components, it's not like you're going to grab this light off the shelf, run outside and turn it on to perform emergency search and rescue. There is time required to set up the system and 5-10 seconds of warm-up won't amount to anything in the scheme of things. Heck, the more I think about it, even a 20-30 second warm-up to 75% brightness is not that big of a deal given system set-up time. Going Xenon and the extra weight and length of the lamp will probably grow the light body and its' weight substantially, won't it? It's a shame to lose the efficiency of the Mercury lamps. I know in earlier discussions, I voiced concerns about the long warm up time but my opinion has changed based on thinking about how the light will be used, it's not a "Grab-N-Go" light.
If I remember correctly, you were somewhere in the area of 70,000 Lumens using the 1000 Watt Mercury lamp, right? What are the Lumen numbers of the pure Xenon lamps you mention above? Is there a compromise Mercury lamp that would provide a 5-10 second warm-up? That, for me, is something easily lived with. Taking into consideration the necessary power supply components, it's not like you're going to grab this light off the shelf, run outside and turn it on to perform emergency search and rescue. There is time required to set up the system and 5-10 seconds of warm-up won't amount to anything in the scheme of things. Heck, the more I think about it, even a 20-30 second warm-up to 75% brightness is not that big of a deal given system set-up time. Going Xenon and the extra weight and length of the lamp will probably grow the light body and its' weight substantially, won't it? It's a shame to lose the efficiency of the Mercury lamps. I know in earlier discussions, I voiced concerns about the long warm up time but my opinion has changed based on thinking about how the light will be used, it's not a "Grab-N-Go" light.
Last edited:
get-lit
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi all..
We can generally pick from two of the three: high efficiency, high luminous intensity or fast startup...
Fast Startup + High Efficiency = Metal Halide
High Efficiency + Luminous Intensity = Pure Mercury
Luminous Intensity + Fast Startup = Pure Xenon
These Xenon's when operated at 1600W are about the same 70,000 Lumen as the Mercury. The Mercury lamp is actually 850W, the same lamp PolarLi is using in his 14". In fact the beams from that 14" and this 11" with retro-reflector are about identical. But the ballast for the 850W consumes 1000W and the ballast for these Xenon lamps would be >95% efficient.
Pure Xenon has somewhat higher Luminous Intensity than Pure Mercury and with pure Xenon you do get > 95 CRI in pure white. There are Mercury/Xenon mix lamps with high luminous intensity and a blend of efficiency and startup time, but the only one's I've been able to find are optimized for deep UV output for microlithography. Lumen output isn't even listed, but they could still be in the middle ground of efficiency and startup time. They're also very expensive.
There is also another issue with Mercury/Xenon lamps; they have high open circuit voltage requirement and therefore not able to be driven by a small, lightweight, efficient power supply that could accept low voltage DC input. It would require 110AC/110VDC input just as the 850W Mercury, so you'd be tethered to an additional inverter power supply to utilize a low voltage 12-80 VDC power source when going portable rather than when stationary. It's a backwards topology.
This is an unrecognized advantage of pure Xenon; the low voltage DC operation is inherent and the conversion from high voltage AC/DC would not be needed when going portable with low voltage power source. It's also not the "nominal operating voltage" that's the issue, it's the lamp's "open circuit voltage". The 1600W lamp is perfect in this regard, with 75V (hot restart) boost phase requirement. The listed open circuit voltage for the XSTAGE 2000 is listed higher, but should in theory be even easier to start than the 1600W because the XSTAGE 2000 has the same nominal voltage and even smaller arc gap. Testing this would be the next step if determining to go with the XSTAGE 2000.
The total system weight with the 1600W Xenon (1150W to 1725W) would be 11 lbs. The total system weight with the 2000W XSTAGE (1610W-2530W) would be 12.5 lbs.
PolarLi,
For converting 120 VAC to 12 VDC, 1025W power supplies pulled from servers have been on eBay for $55 + $15 shipping and weigh 2.27 lbs each. Two of these are 4.54 lbs.
We can generally pick from two of the three: high efficiency, high luminous intensity or fast startup...
Fast Startup + High Efficiency = Metal Halide
High Efficiency + Luminous Intensity = Pure Mercury
Luminous Intensity + Fast Startup = Pure Xenon
These Xenon's when operated at 1600W are about the same 70,000 Lumen as the Mercury. The Mercury lamp is actually 850W, the same lamp PolarLi is using in his 14". In fact the beams from that 14" and this 11" with retro-reflector are about identical. But the ballast for the 850W consumes 1000W and the ballast for these Xenon lamps would be >95% efficient.
Pure Xenon has somewhat higher Luminous Intensity than Pure Mercury and with pure Xenon you do get > 95 CRI in pure white. There are Mercury/Xenon mix lamps with high luminous intensity and a blend of efficiency and startup time, but the only one's I've been able to find are optimized for deep UV output for microlithography. Lumen output isn't even listed, but they could still be in the middle ground of efficiency and startup time. They're also very expensive.
There is also another issue with Mercury/Xenon lamps; they have high open circuit voltage requirement and therefore not able to be driven by a small, lightweight, efficient power supply that could accept low voltage DC input. It would require 110AC/110VDC input just as the 850W Mercury, so you'd be tethered to an additional inverter power supply to utilize a low voltage 12-80 VDC power source when going portable rather than when stationary. It's a backwards topology.
This is an unrecognized advantage of pure Xenon; the low voltage DC operation is inherent and the conversion from high voltage AC/DC would not be needed when going portable with low voltage power source. It's also not the "nominal operating voltage" that's the issue, it's the lamp's "open circuit voltage". The 1600W lamp is perfect in this regard, with 75V (hot restart) boost phase requirement. The listed open circuit voltage for the XSTAGE 2000 is listed higher, but should in theory be even easier to start than the 1600W because the XSTAGE 2000 has the same nominal voltage and even smaller arc gap. Testing this would be the next step if determining to go with the XSTAGE 2000.
The total system weight with the 1600W Xenon (1150W to 1725W) would be 11 lbs. The total system weight with the 2000W XSTAGE (1610W-2530W) would be 12.5 lbs.
PolarLi,
For converting 120 VAC to 12 VDC, 1025W power supplies pulled from servers have been on eBay for $55 + $15 shipping and weigh 2.27 lbs each. Two of these are 4.54 lbs.
Get-lit, thanks for re-summarizing the pros and cons. Now I remember why the Xenon was looking better, fast start and very accommodating with low voltage power supplies and no loss of Lumens output versus the original 850W. I guess that puts my vote back on the 2000W Xstage. 12.5 lbs is very reasonable total weight for a light of this performance. IIRC, it's the weight of the original Costco HID and it's close in size, iirc.
Power to the lamp will be control panel adjustable, IIRC, correct?
get-lit
Flashlight Enthusiast
Yes, by thumb control.
Also, if we design the max power to be the nominal 2000W for the XSTAGE, it would be significant performance over the 1600W lamp while weighing 11.75 lbs. Weight would be saved when designing for max 2000W rather than 2500W because the cooling capacity would be less and the power supply would be smaller. Also, it would be slightly more optically efficient because the smaller air flow ducting would slightly less obscure the optics; not a huge hit but it's a factor. I can't see this being supplied more than 2000W for the vast majority of applications. 2500W would require a 240VAC source and a 240VAC->VDC converter with at least 24V output, and when operated under battery power it's much more likely to be run at the minimum 1610W. I'm unsure it would be worthwhile to lug around another 3/4 lb with slightly less optical efficiency for something that would almost *never* get utilized.
To figure total system wattage, figure (1.05 x "Watts to the Lamp") + 45W for when under max fan power.
Also, if we design the max power to be the nominal 2000W for the XSTAGE, it would be significant performance over the 1600W lamp while weighing 11.75 lbs. Weight would be saved when designing for max 2000W rather than 2500W because the cooling capacity would be less and the power supply would be smaller. Also, it would be slightly more optically efficient because the smaller air flow ducting would slightly less obscure the optics; not a huge hit but it's a factor. I can't see this being supplied more than 2000W for the vast majority of applications. 2500W would require a 240VAC source and a 240VAC->VDC converter with at least 24V output, and when operated under battery power it's much more likely to be run at the minimum 1610W. I'm unsure it would be worthwhile to lug around another 3/4 lb with slightly less optical efficiency for something that would almost *never* get utilized.
To figure total system wattage, figure (1.05 x "Watts to the Lamp") + 45W for when under max fan power.
I rarely operate any of my SA lamps at more than Nominal power. While I could operate this lamp in your light at 2500W with my 30V input, I most likely would not to be kind to the lamp and extend its' life. Dropping .75 lbs is a side bonus as well. You've got my excitement up again! Anything I can do to assist, please let me know.
Would operating the 2000W Xstage lamp continuously at 1150W result in a slow buildup of particulates on the inside of the arc chamber (the darkening of the envelope?)
Would operating the 2000W Xstage lamp continuously at 1150W result in a slow buildup of particulates on the inside of the arc chamber (the darkening of the envelope?)
Last edited:
get-lit
Flashlight Enthusiast
Operating Xenons under their rated range will very quickly destroy the electrodes. I gather because when under-driven, electron flow is not enough to carry heat away.
Last edited:
A_L_R_O_M
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2016
- Messages
- 82
This thread is filled with knowledge!
I really gather energy from those, who are building that high power short-arc stuff!
One day i will be just like you xD
I'm now being in contact with some factory, trying to build 400W electronic ballast with hot-restrike feature and DC input...
May be i will be able to build some high power DC output ballast with high voltage ignition circuitry and try to fire some high power short-arc xenon bulbs.. But i want to stay within 500W-1000W range...
I really gather energy from those, who are building that high power short-arc stuff!
One day i will be just like you xD
I'm now being in contact with some factory, trying to build 400W electronic ballast with hot-restrike feature and DC input...
May be i will be able to build some high power DC output ballast with high voltage ignition circuitry and try to fire some high power short-arc xenon bulbs.. But i want to stay within 500W-1000W range...
My mind must have been somewhere else when I asked the question that resulted in the above answer. What I should have asked is if operating the 2000W Xstage lamp at 1610W continuously would result in the early buildup/darkening/electrode destruction? I know you've stated that's an acceptable power level within the range cited but are there any negatives in doing so?
Last edited:
get-lit
Flashlight Enthusiast
Lamp life is the same. Below rated minimum current, insufficient electron flow causes the Anode to "deactivate", also tending to result in arc instability. Within the rated current range, the Anode remains activated and lamp life is the same.
