Traditional headlamps vs LED cr123 light lamps?

[Snareman]

I need to get a headlamp for hiking/trekking and am trying to figure out the advantages of getting something like a Petzl headlamp that most hikers might use or using something like the Foursevens headlamp band with a Quark Mini123 stuck in it.

Thoughts?

 

[yellow]

"most" hikers use lights of the traditional headlamp makers, because they simply dont know anything in regard to led lights (or even lights at all) or can not purchase a modern light in their hiking shops ...

the one single "problem" of using Your light with a headband is the chance to get a headache when the band is too tight, thats where the middle strap over the head shines.
but when runtime, battery, ..., of the Quark suits your uses, there is no need to get anything else

(I d still rate Zebra H600 or H52 higher ...)

 

[reppans]

I'm a camper that started out on headlamps and lanterns from Black Diamond and Petzl, as mentioned above, because of their presence in brick and mortar stores - I had no idea of the quality online flashlight market. Now I only use traditional flashlights with aftermarket headbands or DIY neck cords/lantern diffusers.

I don't like BD/P stuff anymore - made of plastic, inefficient multi-cell configs instead of boost drivers, not regulated, PWM, red LEDS and filters instead of good sub-/low-lumens, always start on high, bad tints, bulky/not pocketable... Blah, blah, blah...

That said, using a flashlight/headband can has disadvantages as well - flashlights tend to be built for more throw, side strap mounts throw glare on eyeglasses, top mounts do not quickly adjust for angle, and the new 47s Unicorn design moves an already throwy Mini closer to the subject (needs a diffuser).

The best three aftermarket headbands I found are the Malkoff, Nitecore, and Fenix. ZL H-series make very good headlamps, but I personally don't like the company's marketing, warranty, or customer service policies.

 

[carrot]

After switching to "high-end" hands-free lighting from flashlight makers for years I have settled back on traditional headlamp brands. These days, I use headlamps very frequently and regular flashlights almost never.

My two headlamps of choice are the Petzl Nao and the Petzl Tikka RXP.

These headlamps are far superior to anything else that the flashlight market has to offer for my needs and desires. They are rechargeable via USB, easily customizable using a computer, and offer one thing that make them the king of the heap -- automatic brightness adjustment.

The Petzl Active Lighting headlamps have an "eye" that lets the headlamp judge how much light is necessary and the headlamp ramps up or down to accommodate. I would say about 90-95% of the time it is spot on and the other 5-10% it can be overridden to manual mode. This results in two things: you can stop thinking about adjusting your headlamp every few minutes, and you don't blind yourself when you change between looking close and far.

Filtering down to other lesser expensive models I find that modern headlamps fight harder for your dollar. You get better ergonomics, more versatility, and a lighter, more compact package than ever before. Headlamps in the 3xAAA fashion have many advantages -- long runtimes with no surprise battery changes, easy-to-find batteries, and sit perched more comfortably on your head. As a hiker, backpacker and climber, I always prefer not to be surprised by a low battery.

The Black Diamond Spot at $40 does more and is better suited than any flashlight to be perched on your head, with both flood and spot modes, red night vision mode, continuously variable brightness ramping, and a battery level meter.

The budget-level third generation Petzl Tikkina and Tikka offer a massive bang for the buck at $20 and $30 with good lumens, long runtimes and Petzl's legendary ergonomics.

The soon-to-be-released third generation Petzl Tikka Plus and Tikka XP at $40 and $55 will be fully regulated, high-end headlamps happy to sip on alkalines, NiMH and lithium primaries alike.

I have a Zebralight, and it has one use and one use only: as a backup lamp to sit with my spare CR123s and Steripen Adventurer Opti. It truly pales in comparison to modern headlamps from traditional headlamp makers.

 

[markr6]

I don't like BD/P stuff anymore - made of plastic, inefficient multi-cell configs instead of boost drivers, not regulated, PWM, red LEDS and filters instead of good sub-/low-lumens, always start on high, bad tints, bulky/not pocketable... Blah, blah, blah...

No kidding. I look back now and can't believe I used that junk. Good learning experience though in my early backpacking days.

 

[impdaddy]

for working on car and around the house chores, I have had good luck with the real cheap harbor freight lamps (hope this doesn't get me kicked off the site haha), but for hunting and outdoor I like the more expensive models sold at hunting stores.

 

[rojos]

FYI, one of the problems with using a twist operated flashlight as a headlamp is that turning it on/off and changing modes can be pretty awkward and may require both hands.

In general, ergonomics is one area where traditional headlamps have a huge advantage over flashlight based headlamps. Whether the switching method or tilting mechanism, traditional headlamps are usually a lot easier to operate, especially if you don't have both hands free.

 

[JedSmith]

What's the main disadvantage of the traditional Petzl type headlights, and where is that disadvantage most noticed ? I have several Petzl head lamps that I bought over the years. Bought them at a major national outdoor retailer in their stores. They are quite handy for around the house and I have them in our emergency kits for when the power goes out. (Happened more times than usual this winter.) They are Petzl Tikka XP2 lights maybe another model a step up in cost - but not by much - which I don't recall & don't have handy now.
I like the outdoors - hiking, camping, fishing, hunting, etc - and remember thinking that it would be nice if the Petzl put our more light. But you get used to what you have.
I use a headlamp outdoors for the activities I mentioned above. When bowhunting I might be traveling to tree or ground stand pre dawn on foot. Usually I'm hiking on foot, but there might be a few times when I would be on a peddle type mountain bike so I can cover more ground. (More throw would definitely be nicer then.) Often the light is used in camp while doing various chores when the sun is down.
What I understand from peoples comments so far is that (from an operators standpoint) the Petzl type lights are easier to operate, more comfortable to wear, and less expensive - - - but the flashlight type headbands put out more light with better throw, is that right ?

 

[StorminMatt]

inefficient multi-cell configs instead of boost drivers, not regulated

Multi-cell arrangements are actually much more efficient than boost drivers. A boost driver is pretty much the worst thing you can introduce into the design of a light. And it is pretty much only used when there are no other options (ie if you want to run an LED on one or two NiMH cells). In fact, being able to NOT use a boost driver is one of the major advantages of running a light on Li-Ion batteries.

Lights using boost drivers also have the disadvantage of drawing heavy current from the cell(s). Even a 1xAA light of modest output (say, 120 lumens) and a modern, efficient emitter draws 1.5-2A. This can be a HUGE disadvantage if you use alkaline batteries. The same light with a 3 cell setup draws a fraction of this.

On the other hand, boost drivers are often considered an advantage due to the fact that fewer cells are used AND the fact that lights using boost drivers are generally higher quality lights than your typical three cell lights (which has nothing to do with the fact it uses a boost driver). But using three cells vs one or two with a boost driver is still the better setup from an effiency point of view.

 

[reppans]

I'm well aware of the efficiency gains when you can operate closer to the Vf of the LED .

On the other hand, boost drivers are often considered an advantage due to the fact that fewer cells are used AND the fact that lights using boost drivers are generally higher quality lights than your typical three cell lights (which has nothing to do with the fact it uses a boost driver). But using three cells vs one or two with a boost driver is still the better setup from an effiency point of view.

This is what I was referring to - when a light manufacturer uses a 3xAAA battery format to achieve Vf over a 1xAA with boost driver, they are saving a few bucks on a proper boost driver at the LT expense of the consumer. A single AA has as much energy as ~ 2.5 AAAs yet the cells are virtually identical in cost, so it's more than doubling the cost to the consumer in primaries (or effort in rechargeables). And yes, my implication is also that a manufacturer using a boost driver will also tend to be using other more efficient components (eg, latest LEDS).

I haven't touched my BD/P stuff for a while now, but I have a lightbox and I do test my flashlights for efficiency (output and runtime) at the low lumens I use most often. I'd put money on a cheap $25 1AA L10 N219 beating a 3AAA BD/P headlamp on any type of lumen-hrs efficiency test (not to mention having a beautiful beam). I think my SWM D40A running on 3xAAAA (from a 9v, which I got 133 hrs on its 1lm moonlight mode) would stand a good chance of winning as well.

Here's my EDC camping lantern up against my BD Apollo. Both shown on low, I've tested my 1AA at a regulated 40hrs vs the Apollo's unregulated 4AA/60 hr Spec (claim). Clicky. Course the 1AA flashlight can also go much brighter, or dimmer (with a 200+ hr runtime). It's a no brainer for me .

 

[rojos]

I'm well aware of the efficiency gains when you can operate closer to the Vf of the LED .

This is what I was referring to - when a light manufacturer uses a 3xAAA battery format to achieve Vf over a 1xAA with boost driver, they are saving a few bucks on a proper boost driver at the LT expense of the consumer. A single AA has as much energy as ~ 2.5 AAAs yet the cells are virtually identical in cost, so it's more than doubling the cost to the consumer in primaries (or effort in rechargeables).

...Course the 1AA flashlight can also go much brighter, or dimmer (with a 200+ hr runtime). It's a no brainer for me .

But my guess is that you're using Eneloops, right?

For Petzl, the 3xAAA format isn't just about saving a few bucks over a 1xAA format, it's about making a headlamp that is more usable for their target customers - casual users. Casual users generally don't own Eneloops nor do they want to spend the extra cash to buy them and, for them, the 3xAAA headlamp is actually a better product than a 1xAA headlamp due to it's ability to work reasonably well with alkalines.

Petzl also sells Li-ion operated headlamps that they target to the more dedicated crowd. Their current gen li-ion headlamps are very nice and stack up well against flashlight based headlamps in output and beat them in ergonomics.

 

[rojos]

What's the main disadvantage of the traditional Petzl type headlights, and where is that disadvantage most noticed ?

The main one was lower output and price relative to output. They weren't very bright and were quite expensive considering how dim they were. That probably bothered more people than the inconveniences associated with using 3xAAA batteries.

However, traditional headlamps have pretty much caught up to flashlights over the last year or so. Most 1xAA flashlights are capable of 90-150 lumens max and have been for the last 5 years. Most traditional headlamps were in the 30-60 lumen range 5 years ago, moved up to 60-90 about 3 years ago, and moved up to 90-150+ starting last year. They're on par now.

 

[reppans]

But my guess is that you're using Eneloops, right?

For Petzl, the 3xAAA format isn't just about saving a few bucks over a 1xAA format, it's about making a headlamp that is more usable for their target customers - casual users. Casual users generally don't own Eneloops nor do they want to spend the extra cash to buy them and, for them, the 3xAAA headlamp is actually a better product than a 1xAA headlamp due to it's ability to work reasonably well with alkalines.

Petzl also sells Li-ion operated headlamps that they target to the more dedicated crowd. Their current gen li-ion headlamps are very nice and stack up well against flashlight based headlamps in output and beat them in ergonomics.

While it is true that I do use Eneloops (or 14500s and CRAAs), alkalines would actually be a significant advantage over Eneloops the way I use (and have seen others use) camping headlamps. I'm a sub-/low-lumen, night-vision, runtime junkie and spend the vast majority of my time split between 0.3 and 3 lumens, and at these low draws, an alkaline has up to 50% greater capacity than an Eneloop (near 3000mah vs 2000mah). Sure there is a cross over point where the Eneloops easily wins on the high output/high current side, but when I (and the people I camp with) are dealing with these weeny low energy devices (1AA/3AAA), who wants to be changing batts several times a night? We tend stick to the battery conserving low lows where Alks do rule.

Truth be told, this was another major reason that drove me to flashlights.... all my BD/P lowest modes were always too high killing my night vision (not to mention always start on max) and wasting power at the same time. Then the use of red filters/LEDs to preserve night vision was like two wrongs (unnatural tint & wasting batts) trying to make a right (efficient white sub-lumen mode)... but that sub-lumen circuit costs more money... I guess.

 

[rojos]

I'm a sub-/low-lumen, night-vision, runtime junkie and spend the vast majority of my time split between 0.3 and 3 lumens,...

Thanks for clarifying that. I believe that this puts you in a small minority of headlamp users. And it makes sense that you would feel underserved by traditional headlamps since their design goals are broader.

Flashlight based headlamps still outperform traditional headlamps in niche applications like sub-lumen output, extreme high output, tint choice, the ability to use non-proprietary li-ion batteries, the ability to double as an EDC, and for those that have a very specific UI preference such as wanting the light to always turn-on on a certain level. Some users find those to be make-or-break features.

I think the choice between flashlight based and more traditional headlamps comes down to the way you intend to use it. The current generation of traditional headlamp cover the bases for most outdoor users, and is what I would recommend to those who don't really know what they want. Flashlight based headlamps are better for those that have a specific use in mind that traditional lamps do not cover.

 

[reppans]

....traditional headlamps since their design goals are broader.

Flashlight based headlamps still outperform traditional headlamps in niche applications like sub-lumen output, extreme high output, tint choice, the ability to use non-proprietary li-ion batteries, the ability to double as an EDC, and for those that have a very specific UI preference such as wanting the light to always turn-on on a certain level. Some users find those to be make-or-break features.

Guess I look at it a bit differently... Since a single flashlight-based headlamp can outperform all those aspects of a traditional headlamp, then to me, it is the more versatile tool that can be useful to a broader range of users, including the niche folks like me. There's nothing there that's mutually exclusive - you can have low-lumen efficiency, high output, and everything in between; Li-ions, CRAAs and alkalines; a headlamp and EDC, etc. You can have your cake and eat it to.

I guess your point is, will the average headlamp user need or use all the additional performance and versatility of the flashlight based headlamp? Should we recommend a Subaru WRX to an old lady when a Toyota Corolla will suffice? JMHO, but if the price isn't much more, and since flashlights don't have an image issue.... why not?

Traditional headlamps do offer a huge advantage though - their business model invests a lot more $$ in inventory, advertising, in-store presence, and probably warranty/customer service. Most people don't want to do the extra work researching the online options, or like buying sight unseen, or having to ship if there's a return/problem. The ability to walk into a brick and mortar store and demo a large range of product side-by-side is massive benefit, not to mention the instant gratification and hassle-free return option.

 

[StorminMatt]

Traditional headlamps do offer a huge advantage though - their business model invests a lot more $$ in inventory, advertising, in-store presence, and probably warranty/customer service. Most people don't want to do the extra work researching the online options, or like buying sight unseen, or having to ship if there's a return/problem. The ability to walk into a brick and mortar store and demo a large range of product side-by-side is massive benefit, not to mention the instant gratification and hassle-free return option.

Which always makes me wonder why more manufacturers don't take this route. I mean, look at how many people out there think Coast/Lenser is the best thing that ever happened to flashlights. And it's all just because they can go right into a store and buy one rather than dealing with slow and clunky online shopping.

 

[carrot]

You can have your cake and eat it to.

I guess your point is, will the average headlamp user need or use all the additional performance and versatility of the flashlight based headlamp?

No, I don't see a flashlight-based headlamp as completely eclipsing a traditional headlamp. In my uses, the headlamp reigns supreme.

A traditional headlamp still has a massive advantage in ergonomics that flashlights in headbands do not have. Headlamps are comfortable to wear on your head for hours, tilt easily, mount to helmets readily, and often offer better beams for close to mid-range use.

And if we want to talk about the high-end flashlights, we should talk about high-end headlamps too, instead of the ones Walmart stocks.

The Petzl NAO has truly eclipsed high-end flashlights in both performance, beam quality, and longevity. At 355 lumens, it's no joke and the beam quality is truly superb. It is capable of blending a flood beam and a throw beam to get exactly the right mix you want or need, and long battery life is attained with its internal 18650 and clever software tricks. The only thing it can't do is sub-lumen modes, but those are hardly useful outside of camp when you break out from easy dirt paths and need route-finding.

I used to carry a high-end flashlight to pair with my headlamp; now I have headlamps that do it all without me even raising a hand.

 

[reppans]

Which always makes me wonder why more manufacturers don't take this route..

My guess is that the market's not quite there and it's pretty costly to maintain a B&M presence... Fenix has made good inroads and of course Surefire. Still too many people can't believe flashlights cost more than $20.

 

[reppans]

A traditional headlamp still has a massive advantage in ergonomics that flashlights in headbands do not have.

And if we want to talk about the high-end flashlights, we should talk about high-end headlamps too, instead of the ones Walmart stocks.

The Petzl NAO has truly eclipsed high-end flashlights in both performance, beam quality, and longevity. At 355 lumens, it's no joke and the beam quality is truly superb. It is capable of blending a flood beam and a throw beam to get exactly the right mix you want or need, and long battery life is attained with its internal 18650 and clever software tricks. The only thing it can't do is sub-lumen modes, but those are hardly useful outside of camp when you break out from easy dirt paths and need route-finding.

I can't argue ergonomics (fit and beams), I did mention FL/HB limitations in my first post and to each his own... I choose current regulation, lower lows, higher highs, more efficient battery configs, better tints and more durable metal and glass shells over angle adjustment and separate flood/spot beams (which sometimes reminds me of zoomable FLs, BTW). A floody XML in a small head is a great camping beam compromise for me, and the Malkoff headband is perfectly comfortable for all night use (which I happen to be using it as we speak clicky). Anyways, although I'm personally not a ZL fan, I count then in the Flashlight-based realm and they don't seem to give up much of anything to traditional HLs... Sparks too.

My experience is primarily in the mid-priced range ($30-$80) for both FL/HL. That NAO sure seems pretty fancy, but I'd bet a ZL H600 would leave it in the dust on any type of output/runtime/efficiency test - I'm also a manual/stick shift guy myself. (BTW, the Quark my pix, is running a 14500 and will do 350 lms as well, but tonight I'm pretty much just using it's "bright" 200 hr moonlight mode - perfect for inside the tent in this weather).

To each his own... we can only offer our own personal opinions

 

[carrot]

hat NAO sure seems pretty fancy, but I'd bet a ZL H600 would leave it in the dust on any type of output/runtime/efficiency test - I'm also a manual/stick shift guy myself.

That's the thing. On paper and in the lab the NAO doesn't perform well, since if it gets locked into its highest output it does not last long.

However, in real use I have found the NAO plenty sufficient for week-long trips with plenty of battery to spare. The reason is because it is able to continually adjust its own output to the changing light needs and situation, so it's never running harder than it needs to.

In that same real life when I was using the Surefire Saint, and then the Zebralight, and then the Black Diamond Spot, I found myself having to reach up and touch the headlamp constantly. To spot. To check the map. To survey for landmarks. To hike a trail. It's tedious, time-consuming, and takes up precious mental capacity.

With the Zebralight I was constantly worried about leaving it in high mode and expending its laughably short runtime. With the Saint I needed a backup flashlight to get a bit more throw to find trail markers. With the Spot I needed to toggle it between flood and throw and then adjust output levels.

A breath of fresh air: with the NAO, I simply turn it on to one of the modes that I programmed in myself, out of 5 dynamic levels (and 5 manual mode, if I wish to override it), and I have both flood and throw, individually tuned, when I need it, without thinking about it. Each of the five dynamic levels select the maximum output and the percentage of energy each of the flood and throw LEDs are allowed to have.

I almost always put it one or two notches away from max, depending on the difficulty of the trail or speed of movement, and leave it the entire time. I don't have to worry about battery life. I don't have to worry about blinding myself. I can read a map without fiddling with my headlamp. I can see wild animals in the distance. I can find trail markers and landmarks with ease.

To me, the new Petzl Active Lighting system is the pinnacle. The NAO is the apex. It's a smooth, diffuse, sufficiently dim flood when I need it. It's a powerful burst of throw when I look ahead. It's everything in between, constantly adjusting, knowing before I know what I need.