Why no crazy fanfare for SSCP7 based lights?

I am wondering what is going on here?
When Cree first hit the scene it was like the 2nd coming of Christ and it hasnt slowed down yet. Twice the efficency/output of Luxeon was a HUGE advancement. Now we are up to R2s.

SSC came out with the P4 a viable contender for the cree. Now SSC seems to have created a multi die P7. Now I understand availability is scarce, it seems only a few modders ahev been able to get one or two. I also understand these are not a direct drop in replacement/upgrade for most all lights in peoples hands. They are substantially bigger than Cree/SSC p4. And it appears they offer a floody beam like the Lux V . So new reflectors will have to be created. They look like the perfect LED for reflectorless Mule type flood lights .

But I have been reading on here some stated runtimes/output on these and it appears that they are more efficient (at least by twice) and deliver Twice the output of any R2 Cree or SSC p$. This should be equivalent to the appearance of the Cree about 1 and 1/2 years ago. Yet there is barely any talk of it at all on here. This should be a HUGE occurance no?
200 to 300 Lumens on one Cr123 or RCR123? Is this not a big deal? Even with a Cree R2 I dont think you can reach 150 on one cr123 (real OTF lumens, not bloated specs). So even with the "limitations" and need for reflector redesign, explain to me why we are not shifting gears here?

My guesses..

thermal requirements
cost
not used by a reputable brand, yet

If you hang out at the mod section you would find lots of builds of lights with the P7.
As for the regular forums, the LED or General, i guess there isnt a lot of news about it
as there are no commercially available products yet. Time will tell. The P7 went on sale on march, its only been less than 2 months since its introduction. A lot of people are putting the P7 into lights to see what is a suitable host. It seems at the moment, the Mag is still a preferred host.
At the moment, a lot of people want to drive the P7 at spec, and try to obtain the full 900 lumen output, but as we are seeing now, a few people are looking at underdriving the P7
something along the lines of 1.4 or 1.6 amps to get about 300 lumens.
I myself is in the process of looking at underdriving the p7 and putting it into a small body like the surefire E series body.
You are right, it offers a great platform for flood light.

Right now, everyone is waiting for reflectors and optics that are purpose built for the p7 as well as drivers that are built for the p7. Drivers such as the AMC7135 are big and generate a lot of heat. I am waiting for people like Wayne at the Shoppe to design more efficient less heat generating drivers.

The P7 generates a lot of heat, so thick mass is required. The Mag is a suitable host but many people want to put it into smaller form factor lights.

One thing is for sure, the future looks bright.
The P7 already has new binning to go from C to E to F bins. As they get more efficient, we can afford to drive them at lower level than spec and save on heat. If we can save on heat, we can start to put the P7 into smaller lights.

It's really an unsuitable LED for small compact EDC type lights, so it's mostly limited to large 3 D/C mag conversions with lots of heatsinking or fully custom lights. Maybe when the UB2 comes out (I think it's a P7) it'll get more fanfare, even then that light is a little bit larger than the UB1 and almost identical to the M3 in terms of bezel size and profile. I used to have an M3 I'd carry in my pocket, that lasted about a week, just too large to be comfortable.

One thing you are incorrect about is their efficiency. The P7 is not twice as efficient as the current crop of Cree's or SSC P4's, it's actually about the same. It's just four SSC P4 dies put together, so it's no more efficient or really no different than just running four SSC P4's in parallel. The only real advantage it has is all those 4x and 5x multiple LED monsters that people were making can be made with a single large LED now.

Ok. I just saw it in a custom project . A MilkySpit light to be precise and that little guy doesnt even have a reflector but it was stated 200-300 Lumens for 40-60 minutes? I just am really having a hard time believeing those stats. In a Mule head it must get very hot . I get runtimes of 30-35mins on a Gdup on high (700ma?)Cree Q4 with a RCR123. If this LED gets 300 lumens off ONE RCR123 for 40 minutes? isnt that MONUMENTAL in LEDs?
I feel like I have mistimed purchases. if this is true it will make everything obsolete when available. The ability to run on single cell or multi cell platforms all in one with voltage ranges from 3.0 to ? and Ma from below 200 to above 1.5A.
Interesting, and as with other things I am sure like mentioned , there will be issues and compromises required to make it work.
I really have to stop getting on CPF this is becoming crazy, I cant keep up mentally or finacially anymore......

Still confused Marduke.

200-300 lumens for 40 minutes as compared to a Cree/SSC 1/2 the lumens for 35-40 minutes? That isnt better efficiency? if the P7 were run at a lower Ma (I dont know if that is possible) to the same Lumens output as Cree/SSC p4 then it would run twice as long? (not arguing here just ignorance on my part)

kramer5150 said:

My guesses..

thermal requirements
cost
not used by a reputable brand, yet

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I use my $50 MTE light just like my $55 P3D Rebel 100. I don't leave the light on for long periods of time on high. Low mode and middle mode are fine for most tasks, but it still use high all the time...just not for long periods of time, >2 minutes.

IMHO, the build quality is good....better than some of the other Chinese lights I've seen. Light is too big for EDC, but I've replaced my Fenix P3D as my bedside light with the MTE. IMHO, very good value!

I think maybe folks are waiting for a smaller, regulated host for the P7 before jumping in.

litetube said:

Still confused Marduke.

200-300 lumens for 40 minutes as compared to a Cree/SSC 1/2 the lumens for 35-40 minutes? That isnt better efficiency? if the P7 were run at a lower Ma (I dont know if that is possible) to the same Lumens output as Cree/SSC p4 then it would run twice as long? (not arguing here just ignorance on my part)

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You have to compare apples to apples by using the same cells to run them. Efficiency wise, the P7 C bin is 70-90 lumens/watt, which is no better than other LED's. The Cree R2 bin can easily reach over 100lm/W

I was wondering it something along the form factor of an old-school camping lantern or todays HID lights (handle on top) might be better for such an LED.
I know everyone wants a P7 in a Fenix P1 body putting out 900 lumens, but thats a little bit more like science fiction at the moment.

I take it as a good sign that it caused everyone to slow down for a minute and figure some new things out instead of just "swap it out" like it has been for a while.

The fact of the matter is that SSC have not actually done anything clever at all. They have stuck four dies in the same package, big whoop! Lumileds have been doing that for donkeys' years.

When Cree released the P4, it created a storm because it was nearly twice as efficient as a Lux III, but in the same size package.

I for one don't get too excited with the P7, reasons being:

1. As Marduke has pointed out, it's NOT more efficient.
2. It's quite demanding on the driver and battery
3. Because of the larger die assembly, a larger reflector is needed for good focus.
4. Reasons 2 and 3 together make it unsuitable for small lights
5. I'm not a big fan of big lights

Maybe people are skeptical about the claimed performance, or they think there must be a catch. Some defects take time to show up. Some of first Seoul LEDs had problems with the beams turning blueish after a while. Newbie made a very good case for this being due to problems with the heat sink paste (too much or too little) on small parts of some of the Seoul LEDs. Seoul quickly fixed this, and now they are very reliable. In my opinion, The P4 is still the best LED for lights with standard (incan. style) reflectors.

The P7 got plently of hype with its announcement. But frankly I can't find myself attracted to a light with more emitter than reflector, regardless of how bright it is. They'res not TIR optics for it yet, a very hot driver, and it dosen't have any increase in efficency.

The reason why P7s driven on 1 cell aren't going to be that popular is due to the fact that most people look for benefits other than lumens in an EDC light. The emitter technology has come to a point where runtime and efficency are as important as max output.

Once we get to single die 400-600 lumen emitters, I think you'll see a really big shift twoards efficency, color rendition, and size. I personally think a rebel sized emitter at 500 lumens, 4100k, for 4 hours would be a lot more attractive than some 1500 lumen monstrosity.

ElGreco said:

The reason why P7s driven on 1 cell aren't going to be that popular is due to the fact that most people look for benefits other than lumens in an EDC light. The emitter technology has come to a point where runtime and efficency are as important as max output.

Once we get to single die 400-600 lumen emitters, I think you'll see a really big shift twoards efficency, color rendition, and size. I personally think a rebel sized emitter at 500 lumens, 4100k, for 4 hours would be a lot more attractive than some 1500 lumen monstrosity.

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look in the McGizmo section for a very interesting discussion on P7 and reflectors. A 2x123 Aleph 3 based light with 300 out-the-front lumens is nothing to sneeze at.

I'll be really happy when we get a 200 torch lumen surefire L4 or smaller sized light that runs for 4 hours on a pair of CR123's. I bet the real "next gen" LED's (as opposed to the P7) will be able to do that. To me anything brighter is really a special purpose spotlight, and the excessive brightness actually makes it less suitable for general utility.

* 1st of all - its a Seoul (forget the datasheet numbers and divide by 2 at least)
* direct drive is silly and there are no drivers.
* if there were drivers, they were HUGE, because the inductor meeds mass (its almost 3 Amps!)
* heat (has been mentionned)
* at best double the output of a single Cree but needs four times the current (so much for more efficient)

its a dead end in technology evolution and it will need some time till everyone gets this
as soon as there are good multiemitters, that use the newest dies, available, but wired in series, the P7 will be forgotten within days.
(I hope it will be Cree, or Luxeon (if they ever offer a good emitter again), that makes this multi. Somehow I like when the upper/lower output levels are close together and not cover several bins with exaggerated upper level and a median level being lower than the lower bin level of reliable maker's datasheets)

still, even then the heat problem remains

yellow said:

* 1st of all - its a Seoul (forget the datasheet numbers and divide by 2 at least)

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Seriously? I'm not all up to date on my datasheet comparisons of SSC to Cree and Lux, but are you suggesting that the Seoul data is really this far off?

I'd love to see some info to back up that statement.

im just waiting for mac to cram 5 or 7 of these into a 1d mag.
hopefully

I'm not really worried about efficiency, I just want more brightness. I want a drop-in for my C3 to run it on a couple 17500's. To me, I don't really care if I only get incan type runtimes with it. It's just fun for me. I would replace my R2 with a P7 drop-in in a second if I had the choice. So my runtime goes to less than half, big deal. That's why I use rechargeables and have batteries on hand.