BlackShadow
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 34

Thread: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

  1. #1
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    530

    Default 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    http://www.cree.com/led-components-a...onal/xlamp-mkr

    11.7v Forward Voltage up to 1.25 A driver current


    Only thing wrong about it so far is that the spec sheet has the wrong PCB Solder pad size.

  2. #2

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    This looks promising...
    - 18350 HDS EDC XP-L 90 CRI -
    www.romanledlights.com

  3. #3

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Is anyone else seeing a lot of disparities between the announcement and the datasheet? I mean, where are they getting this 200lm/W claim? Also, why is the claimed output limit only 1769lm, where the K2 would put the output at almost 2000lm at max current.

  4. #4
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Moncton, NB Canada
    Posts
    434

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    The 200 lumens per watt is at 1 watt - somewhere between 80-100mA dependant on how the voltage drops at lower current.

    If Cree is willing to stoop this low in order to derive a 200 lumens per watt headline - why didn't they do the same thing with the XM-L2 announcement a few weeks ago? My initial thought when I saw the headline is that some other manufacturer must be coming out with a similiar announcement very shortly and Cree is trying to head off the competitor's headline.

  5. #5
    *Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Flushing, NY
    Posts
    5,887

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    I thought 200 lm/W wasn't going to happen for a few months.

    These look great for general lighting. They have 5000K and 80 CRI which isn't bad at all (I might use these to retrofit some outdoor floodlights) . I wish the 90 CRI bins were available in higher CCTs. Best bins give 1040 lumens ( 127 lm/W ) @ 85°C and 1206 lumens ( 147 lm/W ) @ 25°C. If you increase current to 1.25A you'll get about 1625 lumens @ 85°C and roughly 107 lm/W. Best of all these are 4 dies in series which makes driving them much easier than a single die needing 3 or 4 amps.

  6. #6
    *Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Flushing, NY
    Posts
    5,887

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by slebans View Post
    The 200 lumens per watt is at 1 watt - somewhere between 80-100mA dependant on how the voltage drops at lower current.

    If Cree is willing to stoop this low in order to derive a 200 lumens per watt headline - why didn't they do the same thing with the XM-L2 announcement a few weeks ago? My initial thought when I saw the headline is that some other manufacturer must be coming out with a similiar announcement very shortly and Cree is trying to head off the competitor's headline.
    Cree mentioned 186 lm/W @ 1W when they announced the XM-L2. Remember that when power LEDs first came out ~1 watt (350 mA) was more or less the industry standard. Cree in their press releases is simply showing how well their new LEDs do at this drive level. For what it's worth, they also mention the output at the maximum drive current and 85°C.

    What I'm finding amazing is the best bins are well above 100 lm/W over their entire operating range.
    Last edited by jtr1962; 12-18-2012 at 10:07 AM.

  7. #7
    *Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Flushing, NY
    Posts
    5,887

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    By the way, mentioning the maximum efficacy an LED is capable of is very useful info in that it shows the maximum potential of whatever type of technology the LED is using. Any decreases from this maximum level are caused by heat and current density effects. Or put another way, if Cree wanted to, they could make an LED which gets 200 lm/W at any drive level by just increasing the total die area. Simple economics is the reason they don't.

  8. #8
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Moncton, NB Canada
    Posts
    434

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    By the way, mentioning the maximum efficacy an LED is capable of is very useful info in that it shows the maximum potential of whatever type of technology the LED is using. Any decreases from this maximum level are caused by heat and current density effects. Or put another way, if Cree wanted to, they could make an LED which gets 200 lm/W at any drive level by just increasing the total die area. Simple economics is the reason they don't.
    I had not thought of efficacy in terms of total die area - I always focussed on junction temperatures.
    Thanks for the info.

  9. #9

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    And boom goes the dynamite.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Fresno, CA
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Reminds me of their Easy White in the G2 version. It looks promising but what really got me confused is the maximum current allowed. It states 1.25a and yet, it can run up to 15W? Anyone noticed this yet?

    It's definitely a lot larger than the Easy White platform--similar to that of an MC-E except it's 7x7 and not 7x9 like the MC-E.
    Matt

  11. #11

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiresius View Post
    Reminds me of their Easy White in the G2 version. It looks promising but what really got me confused is the maximum current allowed. It states 1.25a and yet, it can run up to 15W? Anyone noticed this yet?

    It's definitely a lot larger than the Easy White platform--similar to that of an MC-E except it's 7x7 and not 7x9 like the MC-E.
    1.25A * 11.7V = 14.625W, so yes, it is 15W.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Fresno, CA
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by bose301s View Post
    1.25A * 11.7V = 14.625W, so yes, it is 15W.
    So this is a low current emitter designed to produce almost 2k lumens at the emitter?
    Matt

  13. #13
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Saskatoon, Canada
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Ya.

    Basic recap for those who may not know.

    A die for an LED has a forward voltage of about 3V. How much current it can take is largely a function of its area. The more area it has the more current it can handle (generally). (ex. 5mm LEDs have small die and can only take 20mA while the SST-90 has a huge die and can take lots of current, 9A IIRC). In this case the LED has 4 small dies wired in series. 4x3V = 12V (close enough). Since the dies are smaller they can only handle a smaller amount of current, in this case 1.25A. This would be very similar to having 4 XR-E's wired in series. The voltage is close to 12V and the string can only take 1A (as per specs).

    I hope this helps those who may not know.

  14. #14
    *Flashaholic* Gunner12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    10,043

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Maybe they have 4 EZ1400 dies in the light. That'll make it have a similar current limit to the XP-G (1.5 A vs 1.25 A). Since there are more dies closer together, the current rating could be lower to keep heat manageable.

  15. #15

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Looks like this l.e.d. would work great for replacing 100 watt bulbs or 23-26 watt (100 watt equivalent) florescent bulbs. 15 watts is at least a 8 watt savings over the 100 watt equivalent florescent bulb or about a 35% reduction in power consumption (probably less after circuitry losses). If these are cheap enough to use more than one per bulb, we might get closer to 150-200 lumens/watt efficiency for the bulb. I was hoping that I could get an l.e.d. flashlight with a 200+ lumen/watt l.e.d. once they became available. I don't think this l.e.d. will be going into many flashlights anytime soon. I think my best bet is to wait for higher bins of the XM-L2 as they become available.

    With the voltage being near 12 volts, these may also possibly work for car l.e.d. headlight, power failure lights, and low voltage lighting.
    Last edited by Hooked on Fenix; 12-19-2012 at 11:37 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    I think that the MK-R is 4 XP-G2s wired in series and the current limit is lower than 1.5 because the dies are too close to each other. Just like in the case of the csm-360.
    Also the low Vf supports this theory
    Last edited by Rogerstalker; 12-19-2012 at 01:48 PM.

  17. #17
    *Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Flushing, NY
    Posts
    5,887

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked on Fenix View Post
    Looks like this l.e.d. would work great for replacing 100 watt bulbs or 23-26 watt (100 watt equivalent) florescent bulbs. 15 watts is at least a 8 watt savings over the 100 watt equivalent florescent bulb or about a 35% reduction in power consumption (probably less after circuitry losses). If these are cheap enough to use more than one per bulb, we might get closer to 150-200 lumens/watt efficiency for the bulb.
    For longevity reasons these would probably be run at no more than 700 mA ( ~8 watts ). That would imply at least 2 in a 100 watt equivalent lamp. At 700 mA, two LEDs of any bin G4 or better ( or G2 if you can reduce the die temperature) would put out enough light to match 100 watts of incandescent.

    If you look at the best currently available bin (J2), you can more or less match 100 watts of incandescent (1600 lumens) with any of the following:

    1 LED @ 1250 mA - 107 lm/W - 10.2 watts waste heat
    2 LEDs @ 550 mA - 126 lm/W - 7.9 watts waste heat
    3 LEDs @ 350 mA - 136 lm/W - 7.0 watts waste heat
    4 LEDs @ 250 mA - 144 lm/W - 6.3 watts waste heat
    5 LEDs @ 190 mA - 153 lm/W - 5.6 watts waste heat
    8 LEDs @ 115 mA - 163 lm/W - 5.0 watts waste heat
    10 LEDs @ 85 mA - 178 lm/W - 4.2 watts waste heat

    Note that I assume Tj of 85° in all cases and use a LER of 330 lm/W to calculate waste heat. Most like Tj would approach room temperature at lower currents, meaning efficiency would approach 200 lm/W. In any case, you're looking at 10 LEDs to reach maximum efficiency. For economic reasons this wouldn't make much sense. 2 to 4 LEDs seems to be a good compromise between cost and efficiency.

    I was hoping that I could get an l.e.d. flashlight with a 200+ lumen/watt l.e.d. once they became available. I don't think this l.e.d. will be going into many flashlights anytime soon. I think my best bet is to wait for higher bins of the XM-L2 as they become available.
    The voltage on the XM-L2 is also better matched to the typical lithium-ion battery voltage. The MK-R would require a boost driver in most cases, sacrificing efficiency.

    With the voltage being near 12 volts, these may also possibly work for car l.e.d. headlight, power failure lights, and low voltage lighting.
    These are definitely suited for automotive use. Because the forward voltage is only about 1 volt less than is typical for most automotive electrical systems, you can get away with a super simple linear constant current driver and still have ~90% driver efficiency.

  18. #18

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    If you look at the best currently available bin (J2), you can more or less match 100 watts of incandescent (1600 lumens) with any of the following:

    These are definitely suited for automotive use. Because the forward voltage is only about 1 volt less than is typical for most automotive electrical systems, you can get away with a super simple linear constant current driver and still have ~90% driver efficiency.

    Except if you are matching 100W Incan you are doing it at 3000K and the best orderable 3000K, 80CRI bin is G4.

    For automotive, 11.7 is typ, 14 is max and Cree has never been real good (read amenable) to voltage based binning so I don't see this in automotive at least not a volume application without a switcher.

    Semiman

  19. #19
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Fresno, CA
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked on Fenix View Post
    With the voltage being near 12 volts, these may also possibly work for car l.e.d. headlight, power failure lights, and low voltage lighting.
    I always deny myself of using them on car headlights because US DOT regulations prohibits any modifications to a car's exterior lighting. It must an OEM replacement, not mods. Though, I'm sure you could do the mod for inside cargo light as the car cannot be driven with an open trunk?
    Matt

  20. #20

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiresius View Post
    I always deny myself of using them on car headlights because US DOT regulations prohibits any modifications to a car's exterior lighting. It must an OEM replacement, not mods. Though, I'm sure you could do the mod for inside cargo light as the car cannot be driven with an open trunk?
    I wasn't planning on modding my car headlights. I know it's not allowed. However, I think these l.e.d.s have the potential to be used in the next generation of OEM car headlights. Might make hybrid and electric cars more energy/fuel efficient. In a lot of places now, you can get a $200+ ticket for not having your car headlights on in broad daylight. This takes away the fuel savings of a hybrid car as they can't run on battery alone with the power draining headlights on. You get the increased cost of a hybrid, the increased cost of maintenance, and no savings from fuel efficiency. L.e.d. headlights have the potential to save new car owners money from using less fuel in the newest generation of hybrid and electric vehicles.

  21. #21
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Fresno, CA
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked on Fenix View Post
    I wasn't planning on modding my car headlights. I know it's not allowed. However, I think these l.e.d.s have the potential to be used in the next generation of OEM car headlights. Might make hybrid and electric cars more energy/fuel efficient. In a lot of places now, you can get a $200+ ticket for not having your car headlights on in broad daylight. This takes away the fuel savings of a hybrid car as they can't run on battery alone with the power draining headlights on. You get the increased cost of a hybrid, the increased cost of maintenance, and no savings from fuel efficiency. L.e.d. headlights have the potential to save new car owners money from using less fuel in the newest generation of hybrid and electric vehicles.
    Indeed, imagine the efficiency of them hybrids with lower drain lightings. LED itself has replaced many incan and yes, we do save quite a bit of electricity by persuading our parents into switching all light fixtures to LED. I'm just not a huge fan of the 6000k+ tint at home, IMO.

    I can see the increase efficiency in these hybrid vehicles. With today's LED technology and color rendition, the only advantage traditional light bulbs have over LED is their ability to run independently in tight spaces and not worry too much about heat issues. It wont be long until LED technology can fix that issue.

    Really good times are coming. I wonder who'll be the first manufacturer to transform all of their hybrid car's lights into LED
    Matt

  22. #22

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked on Fenix View Post
    I wasn't planning on modding my car headlights. I know it's not allowed. However, I think these l.e.d.s have the potential to be used in the next generation of OEM car headlights. Might make hybrid and electric cars more energy/fuel efficient. In a lot of places now, you can get a $200+ ticket for not having your car headlights on in broad daylight. This takes away the fuel savings of a hybrid car as they can't run on battery alone with the power draining headlights on. You get the increased cost of a hybrid, the increased cost of maintenance, and no savings from fuel efficiency. L.e.d. headlights have the potential to save new car owners money from using less fuel in the newest generation of hybrid and electric vehicles.
    Daytime running lights have been proven to provide a significant safety advantage. They make for significant reductions in certain type of accidents. Where they are required, the brightness level required is not even as bright as a low beam headlight. Purpose built daytime running lights can be implemented for <10 watts total on a car with LEDs. However, it is not uncommon for car manufacturers to just PWM the halogen low beam to have the lowest cost implementation.

    That said, in the big scheme of things, halogen daytime running lights are perhaps 50-60 watts total or a small fraction of the power the vehicle needs to operate and would not impact the ability of a hybrid to run on battery alone. That compares to the 1+ KW that the motor is using.

    Semiman

  23. #23
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Posts
    441

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    I feel like the best flashlight application for these would be to replace old MCE leds, but the voltage does cause issues. Why haven't they came up with an alternate where you can wire them in parallel? Will this happen? They are crazy. Earlier it was stated that they were almost 15W, but by looking at the data sheet at 1.25A and 12.25Vf you would get around 15.3W total and from the picture it seems that the output vs. current is relatively linear at that point and you could probably push them closer to the 1.5A of the individual die, especially if you mounted them directly to a copper heatsink. Why couldn't they be used in a flashlight application? With the LiFePo4 batteries 4 in series would get you very close to what you would want to power them at the 1.25A range. That would lead to some great driver efficiency.

  24. #24
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Posts
    441

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    After further inspection these actually are able to perform pretty close to the SST-90, the SST-90 was tested at 25C and puts out 2700lm at 9A and these at 25C would put out 2400lm at that temperature. Since the SST-90 is so inefficient these would have a lower Tj and therefore be more likely to run at lower temperatures and would likely perform very close to the SST-90. This is assuming that they were both ran at the maximum manufacturer ratings and not over-driven.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Akron, Ohio
    Posts
    1,221

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Fine for industrial, construction and auto. ... A pipe dream for now, I am thinking, 11.7 volt forward, a 12 volt agm (advanced glass mat, used in security systems, and online for $20) would work. I always thought 3 or 4 18650 battery system is minimal to get ample candela, from any xml, for any workaday length. (The multi die promises closer to 180 lpw, not 100lpw when ran harder.) This manufacturers seem to forget. Runtime and lux=usefulness and essential amount of light that bounces back to eyeball of area being looked at.

    Most agm's put out like 13.6 volt, if I remember, off charger. (Heavy, more for bike and toolbelt, but energy potential of 5 lowend 18650s) So, I am wrong that they could drive these? Why not 3 18650's for better runtime/usefulness than 4?
    Last edited by degarb; 12-22-2012 at 10:24 AM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* VegasF6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,445

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    Any idea if/when/where these might be available? Digkey shows no stock and Mouser on order, so I am assuming nowhere yet?

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* VegasF6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,445

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    dupe_
    Last edited by VegasF6; 02-15-2013 at 06:39 PM.

  28. #28
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Posts
    441

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    I heard someone say April.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* VegasF6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,445

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    FYI, I emailed David at Cutter and he has some 3000K ready to ship. I really wanted to pull the trigger but I am hoping to get mine mounted.

  30. #30
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Posts
    441

    Default Re: 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip

    I don't want one mounted, but I want 5000k or slightly more.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •