Internal resistance good to measure battery wear?

Proteckt3d

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Hi guys, I recovered 8 batteries from a laptop battery pack and I used this video to test their internal resistance and I got ranges from 0.56 ohm to 1.07 ohm on the batteries charged at about 4.1V. Now I don't know, the ones with higher resistances will have less capacity? Or is it other way around :)? I had a control Panasonic battery that isn't very old and at 4.2V it had 0.31ohms internal resistance. I wanted to do this test to find out how used they are, I saw they are supposed to be charged at 4.35V to get their full capacity(when new) but it will be ok for me even charged at 4.2. This a a picture with one of them
DSCN4256_zps452e2663.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 

snakebite

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cells with that high of i.r are junk.
on my **** smith esr i often see 20milliohms on new cells once carefully calibrated for the test leads i am using.
i can do a quick voltage test to weed out a group with a shorted cell and toss that group.
then esr test the remaining groups and multiply x number of cells to determine whether to even bother charging.
Hi guys, I recovered 8 batteries from a laptop battery pack and I used this video to test their internal resistance and I got ranges from 0.56 ohm to 1.07 ohm on the batteries charged at about 4.1V. Now I don't know, the ones with higher resistances will have less capacity? Or is it other way around :)? I had a control Panasonic battery that isn't very old and at 4.2V it had 0.31ohms internal resistance. I wanted to do this test to find out how used they are, I saw they are supposed to be charged at 4.35V to get their full capacity(when new) but it will be ok for me even charged at 4.2. This a a picture with one of them
DSCN4256_zps452e2663.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 

Proteckt3d

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Ok, so they are very bad, thanks snakebite for your input. So it seems even the control battery (CGR18650CH) that I thought was ok is actually not that good it seems. I use it in an electronic cigarette and it gets recharged every 3rd day so I think that's pretty good for now but I'm wondering, my battery mod has a 3 amp limit, will it still be safe to continue using it with this i.r? As I hope you can tell, I'm quite new to the rechargeable batteries, but I'm just wondering can it happen that the battery wont be able to produce enough amps because of the i.r build up and get over discharged?
 

THE_dAY

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Batteryjunction has the LGDB318650 which looks similar to your LGDBB318650 which has one extra "B".

According to the spec sheet they are 4.20V max not 4.35V.

I found link to spec sheet from Batteryjunction.
 

Proteckt3d

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Thanks for the correction Day, I was looking at a review of another model and just assumed that these are in the same kind of 'class' as them. For some reason batteryjunction didn't pop out in google when I searched for my batts, only this little review of the "D1" . But still I haven't got a reply to my question :)
 

THE_dAY

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Thanks for the correction Day, I was looking at a review of another model and just assumed that these are in the same kind of 'class' as them. For some reason batteryjunction didn't pop out in google when I searched for my batts, only this little review of the "D1" . But still I haven't got a reply to my question :)
:) Sorry I still new to li-ion as well.
Here are 2 articles I found regarding internal resistence:
http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=guide_bpw2_c06_03
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_does_internal_resistance_affect_performance

From my limited understanding from skimming those articles, higher internal resistance will not affect capacity but will affect cell performance.
So the higher the internal resistence the lower the performance.
 

hunterblue

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Internal resistance is a good measure of cell age but the number is not an absolute, you need to compare the current internal resistance with the original internal resistance to get a good measure.
Energy cells, that is those made for things like laptops, will have a higher initial internal resistance than Power cells, those made for things like power tools.
Internal cell construction will also affect internal resistance, cells with a PTC or CID will have a higher internal resistance.
A good idea would be to find the datasheet or spec for the cells from the manufacturer which should note the typical internal resistance of the new cell to compare to.

HB.
 

ginbot86

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One thing about battery internal resistance that many don't know about is that it is not constant. It differs over the battery's charge cycle, and over its overall lifetime.

Battery internal resistance is relatively flat for the bulk of the discharge curve but spikes dramatically right before the battery runs out of juice. Additionally, battery internal resistance doubles roughly every 100 charge cycles. This is generally the biggest reason that older Li-Ion cells do so poorly at the end of their lifespan.

Texas Instruments makes a bunch of battery 'fuel gauge' chips that can determine a battery's capacity (like the ones in laptop battery packs) and their newer ones can even measure battery internal resistance over its discharge curve. I analyzed a friend's 10000 mAh RC Li-Po with one of their chips (the bq27510-G3 if anyone actually cares :whistle:).

41GGQVE.png

Actual resistance depends on each individual cell but the shape of the curve is similar for most Li-Ion cells.
 

Planz

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One thing about battery internal resistance that many don't know about is that it is not constant. It differs over the battery's charge cycle, and over its overall lifetime. Battery internal resistance is relatively flat for the bulk of the discharge curve but spikes dramatically right before the battery runs out of juice.

Interesting. Does this apply to NiMH?

Additionally, battery internal resistance doubles roughly every 100 charge cycles. This is generally the biggest reason that older Li-Ion cells do so poorly at the end of their lifespan.

Good to know. Does the doubling apply to the flat portion of the graph or just about everywhere on the graph?

Texas Instruments makes a bunch of battery 'fuel gauge' chips that can determine a battery's capacity (like the ones in laptop battery packs) and their newer ones can even measure battery internal resistance over its discharge curve. I analyzed a friend's 10000 mAh RC Li-Po with one of their chips (the bq27510-G3 if anyone actually cares :whistle:).

41GGQVE.png

Actual resistance depends on each individual cell but the shape of the curve is similar for most Li-Ion cells.
 
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ginbot86

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Interesting. Does this apply to NiMH? Does the doubling apply to the flat portion of the graph or just about everywhere on the graph?

I'm not sure if the same rule applies for NiMH batteries but I think it would apply to any common battery chemistry out there. As for the doubling of internal resistance for Li-Ions, it applies to the whole discharge curve.
 

kosPap

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I am posting my results so far, and questions here.

I ahve emasured less than half of my 18650s
results range from 0.13 ohms for not much used NCR18650Bs
up to 0.24 (Sanyo Red) and 0.34 Ohm (Sansung pink) batteries taken from laptops

I would also like your view on my testing conditions
Full battery
1.6 Ohm resistor (next iem ti will be arund 2-2.5)
Current measured around 3.3A

I know it is jos tONE measuremtn taken but can one use the particular figure to monitor & match batteries>

reference threads
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...tance-of-a-battery-using-a-digital-multimeter
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...to-battery-condition-what-are-typical-reading
 

kosPap

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well, bringing back the thread for a new question.

is there a practical way/rule to relate battery age/wear based on new and old I.R. measuremnts?
Like "discard when I.R is double the initial one"?
Or "100 mOhms is too much for an IMR battery. Discard"
 

Gauss163

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is there a practical way/rule to relate battery age/wear based on new and old I.R. measuremnts?
Like "discard when I.R is double the initial one"?

Not in general, because any analysis depends on so many parameters. You may be able to infer what level of IR is too high for a specific device, for specific chemistry cells, at specific temperatures. But any significant change in any of those parameters may cause your estimates to be way off. Further complicating matters are nonconstant pulsed loads (e.g. radio turning on in cellphones), dependence of IR on SOC, dependence on chemistry/shape of discharge curve, device termination current, self-heating, etc.

Also keep in mind that there are many different way to measure IR. Different methods may yield wildly different IR values, making it difficult if impossible to compare results measured by different users/methods. Beware that the results reported by consumer-level devices (e.g chargers) are often way off (e.g. distorted by high contact resistance in 2-wire measurement methods).
 
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SilverFox

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Hello kosPap,

One of the results of increased internal resistance is voltage drop under load. If your voltage drops further than you want, the internal resistance of your cells is too high.

The various rechargeable battery chemistries list a nominal voltage. If your battery is unable to operate at its nominal voltage in your applications, it may be time to recycle the battery.

Tom
 

kosPap

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Also keep in mind that there are many different way to measure IR. Different methods may yield wildly different IR values, making it difficult if impossible to compare results measured by different users/methods. Beware that the results reported by consumer-level devices (e.g chargers) are often way off (e.g. distorted by high contact resistance in 2-wire measurement methods).

you are bringing up a subject I was going to ask in the Opus BT-C3100 thread.
I am getting a variance in measurents when testing IR with this charger, and it is getting larger the older the battery is.
i.e. a certain set of 9 measurements (one for each chanell and 5 more on a certain channel) gave me values around 149-155 mOhms but with a low of 132 and a high of 178.

Now contact resistance plays a role and the charger's manual mentions an average of 30mOhms existing, which is to be deducted from the displayed number.
Questions are:
- how much of this variance can be attibuted to the battery being old
- Should i count the average or take the lowest measurement?

BTW so far I have been measuring IR with 2 multimeters and a power (ceramic) resistor.
And I was getting somehow lower numbers compared to the Opus.

Silverfox, thanks for the alternate method. I should have though of that too, considerign I have most battery datsheets saved. in my PC
 

Kurt_Woloch

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Just for the record, here are some of my findings. They are not directly measured, but inferred by the voltage readings inside of the laptop while charging and discharging... (if your laptop doesn't display this, try BatteryInfoView, which I found to be a pretty handy free tool...)

I got my first used laptop, a Thinkpad T61, back in February 2012. It came with a battery which at the time still held up for about 90 minutes, but lost capacity rapidly. On March 21th, the calibration gave a reading of about 25% capacity left, however, some more capacity was hidden in the lower part of the curve which couldn't be used anymore because the voltage reached 10.24 V at about 50% discharge, at which point the calibration process switched to recharging it. That battery (a 6-cell one with 10.8 V, thus we have three cells in series and 2 in parallel) had a short-term resistance of 325 mOhms, and a long-term one of 510 mOhms. The short-term is comparing the readings directly before and after the switch from discharge to recharge, and the long-term one is at a somewhat higher, but consistent part of the curve. This would put each individual cell at 217 and 340 mOhms, respectively. This battery degraded further pretty fast... on October 19th, it had only 0.8 Ah left, which is 15% of the original capacity, and the long-term resistance per cell had risen to 512 mOhms according to my calculations. We recycled the battery after that.

In fact, I had already bought a new replacement battery in April 2012, which was first calibrated with the data recorded in November 2012, and then it had about 98 mOhm per cell at a capacity of 97% of nominal. This was at 87 cycles (where a Lenovo cycles actually is only 70% of total capacity).
Further results were (resistance is per cell, not for the pack):
130 mOhms long-term at 94% of remaining capacity on April 5th, 2013, after 125 cycles;
147 mOhms long-term at 93% of remaining capacity on January 5th, 2014, after 240 cycles;
148 mOhms long-term at 91% of remaining capacity on August 8th, 2014, after 311 cycles;
(The next calibration data from April 2015 was lost)
Right now we are sitting at 207 mOhms long-term and 150 short-term at about 85% of remaining capacity, after 428 cycles. I expect the battery to be useful until about 500 cycles which would be reached sometimes next summer.

However, the laptop is now a different one, a used T60 since the T61's display was ruined on a ride with an e-bike. With the T60, I got a 9-cell battery which seems to be pretty good for its age... it's from 2009, but after two calibrations it still shows 90% of original capacity, at an internal resistance of only 100 mOhms for the pack... since these are 3 cells in parallel and 3 in series, this would also be the internal resistance of each individual cell in average.

Before that I bought a cheap Chinese spare pack using 12 cells, but still having an internal resistance of about 250 mOhms, which would put each cell at 167 mOhms, although the cells do deliver their rated capacity of 2200 mAh each. I'm in doubt if all of that comes from the cells, however... some of it may also be produced by resistance in the wiring in the pack itself or the switching transistors, since they are the part that gets very hot, much hotter than the cells, if the battery gets a high load.

In between the T61 and the T60, I had a used ASUS laptop, but sadly it got stolen only a week after I bought it. Its battery, however, also had an internal resistance of 250 mOhms, but it was a 6-cell battery like the one I got for the T61... well, not quite like it since from the discharge curve it seems like it used the same cells as used in the Chinese spare pack for the T60, and it also used 2200 mAh cells unlike the 2600 mAh ones used by Lenovo for their genuine packs. The pack showed a "wear level" according to BatteryInfoView (Asus doesn't supply any software of their own to check this) of about 85-86%, and the internal resistance of each cell would then be roughly 167 mOhms. The number of cycles is unknown (BatteryInfoView doesn't even manage to display it for the T60 and T61 where it gets correctly displayed by Lenovo's own software, and it also showed 0 on the ASUS laptop).

So much for the results I got. For the Lenovo packs I would say that they cross the line of getting not so useful anymore at an internal resistance of about 200-300 mOhms per cell (short-term / long-term). After all, they have to deliver up to about 55 Watts in a T60 or T61 laptop when fully loaded, like playing DVD's with additional devices hanging on the USB ports.
 
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