Lumens to Lumens
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It could be many things including fudging on the lumens ratings on the LED light also it could be the difference in reflectors and optics on the two if there are any. You can also think one light is brighter till you try and light up a room with both and find out that there is just a more intense hot spot or your eyes are more sensitive to tints looking more directly at it pointing it at something that the tint color renders differently.
Swedpat
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have noticed that I usually need less lumens with an incandescent than an LED to perveive the same brightness, so my experience seems to be same as yours. I guess it pretty much has to do with the color rendition which makes it easier for the eyes to see details and shades.
ven
Flashaholic
Cant add to whats been said,for me cool white appears brighter,the reflector plays a part along with the hot spot size as obv concentrated.
500lm thrower(hot spot) on a wall 20m away looks far brighter than a 3000lm flooder(wide spread)
500lm thrower(hot spot) on a wall 20m away looks far brighter than a 3000lm flooder(wide spread)
Swedpat
Flashlight Enthusiast
Yes, a 500lm thrower could be perceived as brighter than a 3000lm flood even at 20m if the total coverage of the flood light is much wider, and if you illuminate a small object. Otherwise it's only the hotspot which then is brighter on a very small area, which is only a disadvantage because it blinds. The advantage of a flood light is the absence of a blinding hotspot(which at short distance is wasted lumens). So for me the thrower usually is good only for long distances.
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Few years back I bought TK35 to replace my ROP assuming they both have similar output but I was wrong and finally sold it here.
Until now, I haven't found any LED to replace any of my halogens in quality of light.
I've never noticed this myself, having only ever had LED lights that are significantly brighter than incandescent ones. I'm just hypothesising, but perhaps part of the difference is because an incandescent bulb puts out a much wider spectrum of light than an LED? That could lead to a discrepancy in the measurements, especially if measurements are taken only at specific frequencies rather than the integral across the entire frequency range.
That's a reasonable thought. There is definitely a nice warmth to incandescent lighting.
cenz
Enlightened
I have 2 D26 LED modules for EDC, which are brighter than P90 in spec, at a short distance (~30cm), which are really blind and brighter than P90; However,which are weak at 3+ meter, the colors of illuminated object is flat and not "feel" brighter than incan.
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groutboy_1
Enlightened
I think someone's wearing incandescent tinted sunglasses. Lol...
dc38
Flashlight Enthusiast
Our eyeballs aren't designed to utilize light higher up the temperature scale...maybe in a couple centuries/millenia, our eyes might evolve to see higher kelvin lights more effectively taking into account current LED tech. Also, maybe LED tech will evolve to match the color output of incandescents...all speculation
groutboy_1
Enlightened
maybe, because our eyes still "notice" the power converted into light ...
--> for 100 lumen incan one needs SOME more power going into the light, than with led
You mean you had to fill your incandescent with kerosene, and lit the wick!? An example of old musty tech, vs New bright shiny tech. (Lol)
[Old brinkmann lx with its candle lit. About 120 yellow-Orange glow lumens vs 139ish- old batteries. New Bright lumens !]
From what I see/measure....the main reason the incans look brighter sometimes is due to the generally tighter beam profile. Essentially, its the same reason people will look at the beam from a 900 lumen SC600 against a wall next to a 131 lumen mag, and state the 131 L mag is brighter...the tighter beam causes more glare, which the eye tells the brain is "bright".
As incans can typically emit from a smaller point source, they do tend to have throw more easily in many scenarios. The reflectors can be shallow but wide, and throw well, whereas an LED light requires a proportionally deeper reflector to get throw, while still needing diameter to achieve their best throw.
This can mean that the form factors can lend themselves to incan's, HID, etc, having intrinsic throw advantages.
When sighting targets, the difference in light quality, as far as target acquisition, motion tracking and aim accuracy, is not actually that relevant. The lux on target seems to be far more relevant than the tint or spectrum itself...as long as the spectrum includes yellow/green, where the eye is optimized. Red light was the hardest for fast targeting, especially for people with low red sensitivity. Lux trumps color though, very consistently.
When incans look dimmer, its where they have a floody beam, reversing the effect, as now their beam is more spread out and diluted, etc.
As for pattern recognition, the incans are better for spotting things like a dark clothed person in shadows, as the subtleties of close color patterns can stand out better in most cases. The LED can do very well in some cases, but, overall, the incans do have an edge. When the target is wearing camouflage, ironically, the LED can do better under some conditions, as the patterns meant to disrupt the outline of the target can be accentuated, defeating the process. This is akin to when we use different wavelengths in general, as a pattern/textile combination designed to concealing when viewed with night vision, or day light, may be revealing under UV, etc.
So, lumens are lumens, and if an IS measures 2 lights as 100 lumens, they both emit 100 lumens. If one 100 L light has a cd of 10k, and the other has a cd of 50k, most people will say the 50k cd 100 L is brighter than the 10k 100L.
Lumen measurements INCLUDE a measurement across the visible spectrum, so, if a light's output is MISSING part of the spectrum, its lumen out put is proportionally lower. As an LED's frequency emission is not as evenly distributed as an incan's, the LED will be proportionally lower rated when little or no signal is received in some wavelengths, etc. The LED may emit most of its light in certain wavelengths, with stronger peaks in those wavelengths. If the peaks are tall and broad enough, and include the wavelengths that the lumen measurement is weighting heavily, (The lumen measurements weight the measurement towards what the eye can perceive best), it can result in a beam that is strong where the eye can use it best.
So, overall, in my use, etc, the main advantage to the LED lights are the lower power consumption/smaller form factors relative to output that can be achieved, so a smaller light with a longer run time can accomplish the same task normally reserved for an incan. The quality of light for most functions works fine, and I simply use incan/HID/LED lights where the advantages/disadvantages of each make sense.
As incans can typically emit from a smaller point source, they do tend to have throw more easily in many scenarios. The reflectors can be shallow but wide, and throw well, whereas an LED light requires a proportionally deeper reflector to get throw, while still needing diameter to achieve their best throw.
This can mean that the form factors can lend themselves to incan's, HID, etc, having intrinsic throw advantages.
When sighting targets, the difference in light quality, as far as target acquisition, motion tracking and aim accuracy, is not actually that relevant. The lux on target seems to be far more relevant than the tint or spectrum itself...as long as the spectrum includes yellow/green, where the eye is optimized. Red light was the hardest for fast targeting, especially for people with low red sensitivity. Lux trumps color though, very consistently.
When incans look dimmer, its where they have a floody beam, reversing the effect, as now their beam is more spread out and diluted, etc.
As for pattern recognition, the incans are better for spotting things like a dark clothed person in shadows, as the subtleties of close color patterns can stand out better in most cases. The LED can do very well in some cases, but, overall, the incans do have an edge. When the target is wearing camouflage, ironically, the LED can do better under some conditions, as the patterns meant to disrupt the outline of the target can be accentuated, defeating the process. This is akin to when we use different wavelengths in general, as a pattern/textile combination designed to concealing when viewed with night vision, or day light, may be revealing under UV, etc.
So, lumens are lumens, and if an IS measures 2 lights as 100 lumens, they both emit 100 lumens. If one 100 L light has a cd of 10k, and the other has a cd of 50k, most people will say the 50k cd 100 L is brighter than the 10k 100L.
Lumen measurements INCLUDE a measurement across the visible spectrum, so, if a light's output is MISSING part of the spectrum, its lumen out put is proportionally lower. As an LED's frequency emission is not as evenly distributed as an incan's, the LED will be proportionally lower rated when little or no signal is received in some wavelengths, etc. The LED may emit most of its light in certain wavelengths, with stronger peaks in those wavelengths. If the peaks are tall and broad enough, and include the wavelengths that the lumen measurement is weighting heavily, (The lumen measurements weight the measurement towards what the eye can perceive best), it can result in a beam that is strong where the eye can use it best.
So, overall, in my use, etc, the main advantage to the LED lights are the lower power consumption/smaller form factors relative to output that can be achieved, so a smaller light with a longer run time can accomplish the same task normally reserved for an incan. The quality of light for most functions works fine, and I simply use incan/HID/LED lights where the advantages/disadvantages of each make sense.
groutboy_1
Enlightened
Incandescents look brighter sometime??? You mean that Dim sick orange- yellowish mess!?! I never thought incandescent bulbs had any good color, tint, or for that matter any form of brightness! It is so awesome we have move away from crude old technology into tech for better living! Long live LEDS !!! Put an end to wasteful bulbs, wires, and wicks!!!
^apparently you have never experienced an overdriven 64623. BLAZING bright, pure white light, at over 4000 lumens with ease! Not even my MTG2 M@g, running at 6 amps can give me that, and that's one of the most recent LEDs available. Even though I currently own 60+LED 'torches', I still find myself firing up the ole' bi-pin M@g mods. While not the most efficient, they rightfully earn the title 'torch', litterally being able to start fires!! Not to mention, the CRI. The only LEDs remotely close IMO are the Nichia's. But as far as LEDs go, they are among the least efficient available, due to such a high forward voltage. Also they MUST be used with a OP reflector only for a smooth beam, so forget about that precious throw.
I could go on forever about this, but I'll leave on this note; Long live incans..
I could go on forever about this, but I'll leave on this note; Long live incans..
groutboy_1
Enlightened
Mirrored campfires?
Well, no, they now can be had with aspherics too, and throw over a mile...so they can have plenty of throw. Even reflector only lights are out there with over 500,000 cd.
And, they don't waste energy due to high forward voltage, they are FAR more efficient than incans, in that almost all of the incan's out put is heat, not light, whereas almost all of the LED's output is light, not heat. (Hence you being able to start fires with your icans...)
There are more than Nichia 219 LED with high CRI, XML2 for example have high CRI versions.
Now, if you only want to limit the issue to the Nichia's throw, sure, its not the best choice....but there's little real world application for a high CRI projection onto a target at long range, given that with night vision, most of us are seeing almost entirely in black and white anyway....and what color vision we have left is in the range that the LEDs DO make.
Incans have their niche, as do LEDs, but lets be honest about each. I have both, and, they all earn their place.
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groutboy_1
Enlightened
Candle through a snow globe!
Making fun of something because its old fashioned is not always applicable. Aspirin still works great for example, even though we've first used it back a century or two ago.
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