Help! My office building just switched to hideous LED (not fluorescent) lighting

This morning, my officemates and I arrived to find that our landlord had replaced our 48-inch fluorescent overhead lights with energy-saving NOT fluorescent LED tubes. The new tubes cast a beam that can only be described as ghoulish and soul-sapping. It skews blue. It's far from full-spectrum. Some say it looks like hospital lighting. I say it looks like lighting from a prison, only I wouldn't wish it on any prisoners. Even people who don't normally notice lighting, notice this lighting.

I get that landlords want to save money. But surely the need to save pennies must be weighed against tenants' happiness and well-being.

My company's CEO has asked me to advise her how to take up the matter with the landlord. I thought I'd start here.
What advice do you have?
Are there studies that show that when tenants receive less human lighting, they're more likely to leave?
In case the landlord will relent, I want to offer to meet him halfway. can you suggest warmer, fuller-spectrum 48s that operate almost as efficiently as these "energy efficient" LED tubes? And, ideally, that don't cost much more to buy?

Re: Help! My office building just switched to hideous fluorescent lighting

Could you clarify what the original bulbs and the new bulbs are? In your description you say you went from 48 inch fluorescent to fluorescent tubes. These two sound like the exact same bulb because 48 inch flourecents are tubes.

Re: Help! My office building just switched to hideous fluorescent lighting

that sounds quite awful.

One area of my office building has replaced the fluoro tubes with good LEDs. I think the fixtures were replaced too, so I don't know if they use the standard tube form factor. I think they look great, and the general response is favorable. It seems that there ought to be something in a tube form factor that would provide similar light quality.

Perhaps you can check on the tubes and see who makes them and what model they are? If they are from a reputable manufacturer, there should be a published spectrum or CRI. With that benchmark, you could look at other LED tube manufacturers and see who offers one with better light quality.

Re: Help! My office building just switched to hideous fluorescent lighting

skyled, I was correcting my title and text as you were posting your question! We went from, I would guess, 5500K fluorescents with a CRI of maybe 82 to LEDs with a color temperature north of 6000K and a CRI well below 80. I'm guessing about CRIs; I haven't kept up.

Re: Help! My office building just switched to hideous fluorescent lighting

Sounds like someone grabbed some retrofit tubes out of a catalog without bothering to look at specs. Know what kind they chose? If you can find out it will go a long way towards arguing against them and possibly getting the floros back or better retrofits installed.

Re: Help! My office building just switched to hideous fluorescent lighting

I think they're just new tubes. In my office of 24 people, all the replacement bulbs were installed overnight.

Re: Help! My office building just switched to hideous fluorescent lighting

Ninja'ed on my own slow ninja edit.

Wouldn't bet against those retrofits being little more than strips of 5050 SMD LED's from the cheapest supplier that promised something close to a lumen and CCT spec and nothing else.

Re: Help! My office building just switched to hideous fluorescent lighting

Paul_in_Maryland said:

skyled, I was correcting my title and text as you were posting your question! We went from, I would guess, 5500K fluorescents with a CRI of maybe 82 to LEDs with a color temperature north of 6000K and a CRI well below 80. I'm guessing about CRIs; I haven't kept up.

Click to expand...

Ok thanks.

It's possible that the LEDs have a CRI below 80 but it's unlikely. Most LED tubes these days are made with at least 80 CRI LEDs. You could tell your landlord that your office is reconsidering the lease because work has been affected by the poor lighting.

Or have him replace with some high quality LEDs with higher CRI. There are some new ones in the big boxes at a low price.

I agree that it sounds like the landlord just bought whatever LED tubes that were on sale and picked up some 5000k+ tubes. If they're brand new, they should be returnable. Here's what I'd suggest:

1. Calmly have your CEO explain to the landlord that the new lighting has been getting complaints because of X and Y. Give specific reasons to why it isn't acceptable (namely, the color temperature/blue cast/etc). Do not threaten to leave or anything like that. They probably didn't notice their mistake.
2. Have a list of suggested alternatives that would still save them money but would be much better for the people there. Cree and Philips make lots of LED tubes with different color specs. If those suggestions are too expensive (they are name brand, after all), check what brand the landlord ordered and see if they make anything more acceptable.
3. Instead of buying the whole lot at once, trying buying just one or two bulbs so they can be tested out.
4. If landlord is unwilling to compromise, then threaten to leave. But only make it if you really are willing to leave.

Interesting{ very unusual} that your lease includes electric costs as part of the base lease rate,and therefor the landlord is trying to cut the electric bill that he pays.You could take a trip to your local Home Depot and purchase 4 Cree 48" led tubes{$20 each} and swap them out in one fixture and compare the light quality- if you like the difference,invite the landlord in to see the difference,and then negotiate who pays what percent to swap out the bad leds for good ones.Problem solved,quickly and very easily.

I recommend to use 4,000K LED tubes. They are neutral white, which will be nearly similar to 5500K fluorescent.
If you choose a real brand like Osram, Philips, Samsung or LG, you can expect an CRI of at least 80.
lighting.philips.com/l/professional-lamps/led-lamps-and-systems/led-tubes/led-t8-instantfit-lamp/72296/cat/?t1=ProductList
sylvania.com/en-us/products/solid-state-lighting-led/integrated-led-lamps/Pages/ULTRA-LED-T8-Lamps.aspx
samsung.com/hk_en/business/insights/news/samsung-launches-ultra-efficient-led-tube-lighting-for-business
samsung.com/hk/business-images/resource/data-sheet/2013/02/L-Tube-0.pdf
samsung.com/us/news/23787
lglightingus.com/led-tube.aspx

These are great suggestions, SkyeLED, CoveAxe, Qship1996, and angerdan. I've long been a fan of 4000K to 4300K lighting. I haven't checked prices; In any case, now that the dirty deed is done, I fear it's too late to ask the landlord to pull out the LEDs he just installed and return them. And since LEDs last indefinitely, I fear that every tenant is now stuck with these unless they replace them at their own expense.

I'll gather up pricing and share it with my boss, together with a draft letter. But in the end, I think I'll end up buying my own 4000K light to illuminate my desk. Once people see the difference, I may order morefor coworkers who are willing to do the same. If it's efficiency the landlord wants, surely even 4000K, high-CRI LED lighting will efficient than any fluorescent.

CoveAxe said:

... 4. If landlord is unwilling to compromise, then threaten to leave. But only make it if you really are willing to leave.

Click to expand...

I'll chime in with a suggestion. Call it 4b. Tell the landlord that if he fixes the lighting, you won't all bring in electric bathroom heaters and run them 24/7 ...

What type of diffuser panel(if any) is currently installed? Have you looked at changing the diffuser panels to something that creates less glare? There are a ton of options in the diffuser panel space.
Finally, if your diffuser panel is smooth you might consider some of the films available for windows to reduce glare etc.

Pm sent to op...

Anything above 5000K was not meant to be used indoors, in my opinion. Especially with LED, once the color temperature starts becoming really high, the quality of light starts to deteriorate, because there is basically a huge blue spike in the spectrum.

For me, being in a room illuminated by LED lighting really strains my eyes. Higher color temperatures are worse. I actually prefer the color of cool white light, but my eyes just would not be able to take it. I do not know what it is about LED lighting, but it just really strains/agitates my eyes.

It is very strange for me because fluorescent lighting also hurts my eyes, but mostly in a different way. I have a rare condition and my skin feels sore if I have been under fluorescent lighting too long, and it makes my eyes feel sore too, like "snow blindness", if you have ever experienced that. But it feels bad in a totally different way than when I get eye strain from LED. The eye strain from LED usually goes away after a short time, whereas the sore eyes from being in a fluorescent-lit room continue feeling bad 20 hours later. But fluorescent lighting does not agitate my eyes as quickly as being in a room lit by 3500K+ LED, and it feels to me that LED lighting has about 40-60% more "glare" than fluorescent lighting. But for the above stated reasons, it's hard for me to really accurately compare the two without bias, you understand. Natural sunlight, for comparison, does not seem to have all that much glare to me. I don't have any problem with a little sunlight coming through a skylight or window.

I do not know how everyone else perceives this all. LED does not cause my skin to feel sore, so I am assuming it does not affect my eyes the same way as fluorescent either. This is all very complicated for me, and there are few others who can fully share my perspective. Still, I do know there are many other people out there who find LED office lighting to be uncomfortable glaring like I do. I do not think my sensitivity to LED has anything to do with my sensitivity to fluorescent, if that makes sense. But it's hard for me to comment on how much LED strains my eyes when I also have this other weird side condition going on.

Even this LED computer screen I am using is killer on my eyes.

And before anyone brings it up, this all has nothing to do with flicker, I am absolutely sure about that. I think those 450nm wavelengths from LED lighting are just harsh on the retina, meanwhile those violet wavelengths from fluorescent are causing my other type of sensitivity/soreness, both in my eyes and skin.

I know this may all sound ridiculous, but for me it's no small effect. And some people finding that being all day under high color temperature LED lighting really strains their eyes is not that rare.

COMMENT REMOVED.

"I recommend to use 4,000K LED tubes. They are neutral white, which will be nearly similar to 5500K fluorescent. " ...... Good suggestion to use 4000K .... then completely off the mark saying they will be nearly similar to 5500K fluorescent. No they won't be even close ... not at all.

It is highly highly unlikely that you previously had 5000K fluorescent lighting in the past. It is much more likely you had 4000K as that is by far the most common, and usually by far the cheapest bulbs. Odds are what you have now IS 5000K ... or even 6000K.


So ... what can you do:

1) Best suggestion above was threaten to plug in heaters 24/7 unless they change, unless the plugs are separately metered from the lights in which case ... nope not going to work.

So let's go on technicalities .....

A) Pull out one of the tubes and looks for a UL/ETL/CSA mark and ALSO .... a file number. Go to the UL\ETL\etc. site and check that the number is BOTH valid AND that is applies to the exact part number listed. Often Chinese MFR will get one UL mark/file number and then apply it to almost everything. You can't do that. Unless the part number is listed in the listing, either exactly or through a -XX where conditions on the XX are listed. If they fail, its a quick letter to the landlord to remove the illegal tubes.

B) Most of those LED tubes are optically very poor once they go into fixtures. One of two things happens. 1) They light levels are lower (as the tubes are lower lumens). I would measure what the lux level is in the office and ensure it meets established IES guidelines. If not, that gives you a reason to complain. The other thing that happens is because of directionality, typically the distribution is poor, so also check the min/max lumens. You may need to go and buy a $30-50 light meter for this.

C) Contrary to what Ander's wrote above, being under high CCT LED lighting all day is unlikely to create more eye strain. There is a good chance it may reduce eye strain by causing a proper closing of the iris which gives you better depth of focus and hence less strain on the eye to focus. It may also create higher levels of alertness/awakeness by better stimulation of retinal ganglian cells. That may be good for 8-10 hours ..... 12+ perhaps not so much.

D) Flicker: In my experience, the cheap LED tubes, especially the ones that have the driver integrated into them, have bad flicker. You don't want to be under that 8-10 hours a day. Think equal or worse than magnetic ballast fluorescent lights. Unfortunately, without a good tool, you can't measure that. Hey Ander's, did you know that LED monitors can flicker too? .... and CCFL ones too?

E) LEDs don't last indefinitely, but it will seem that way. Actually unlike fluorescent tubes which maintain 90%+ of their output over their life, LEDs keep decaying forever. While it may be bright enough now, a few years down the road, especially if on 24/7 for security, then the light output may be too low (see above on IES).

F) In order to get rebates, typically the tubes would have to have met DLC criteria in pretty much anywhere in the US. I would assume they would want rebates considering the cost of the tubes (actual safety approved ones at least). The criteria for DLC is <=5000K and >=80CRI.


Best thing to do up front is take out a tube and take pictures of it and post for us to see. Model numbers, safety certification mark and number, etc.

Semiman


p.s. My standard lighting for office working is 5000K, high CRI (90+). Less eye strain, keeps you awake and happy ....

Best thing to do is reply to my pm to replace those horrible t5 led retrofits...with proper award winning industry leading luminaires. @ Semiman :nana:

Here's a cellphone shot of the fixture closest to my cubicle. I boosted the clarity and sharpness but didn't touch the color, saturation, or contrast. Comparing the photo to the light, I'd say that the photo is about 2 stops underexposed--not surprising, since I used no exposure compensation.






In a week or so, I'll be moving to a cubicle in a newly opened corner. When I move, I'll remove the LED lamp there and get the photos that SemiMan has requested.

It seems as though the LEDs are directional, and seem to be aimed as to provide indirect reflected light off the curved reflectors?