Green Creative Titanium 4.0 bulbs- anyone tried these?

I've been eyeing the 4000k versions of this 75W and this 100W equivalent bulb.

I like that they're efficient at 98.3/100 lumens/watt respectively. They're also rated for fully enclosed fixtures and the 100W is smaller than the Cree.

Yet I can't find much about these on the 'net- do they have noticeable flicker? Does the light have any ugly color casts?

I got the 4000k 100W equivalent. No noticeable flicker for me. I don't have any dimmers so I don't know how it performs there. As far as I could tell, it was just a normal 4000k light source. I didn't notice any bad casts from the light. The build quality seems to be reasonably good, definitely not cheaply made. The light distribution looks to be pretty uniform since I didn't see any dark or hot spots. The only problem I had is that it needed to be tightly screwed into the socket, or it would intermittently blink. I'm not sure if it's due to the bulb or if it's something with the sockets but it was fine after I tightened it.

Right now it is in a tiny enclosed fixture at my parent's house that is on at night for about 8-10 hours at a time. I'm going to check on it in about a month or so and see if it survived. If it can survive that, I'll be buying more.

Thanks! Glad to hear initial impressions are good. I've just ordered two of the 1700lm/100W eq. bulbs from EarthLED w/ the free ship coupon. I'll try them in my office and kitchen to see where I like them best.

They'll be together as a pair in an enclosed ceiling fixture. I plan on leaving a <1cm space between the glass and the base of the fixture to help with heat.

If they work out well, I plan on buying more after I move this July.

I just got the bulbs in the mail today and have spent some time with them.

The good:
Clean, white light with no unusual color casts. Neither blueish nor reddish either. Exactly what I expected color wise.

No hum. My Philips bulbs make some noise and it's refreshing that these don't.

The bad:
I tried the pair of bulbs in a small bathroom to better evaluate the quality of the light. I immediately noticed the flicker. I actually felt a little off balance because of it. I confirmed with my phone's camera- the Green Creative bulbs have dark bands due to flicker. The others I compared against - three older Philips models - have no such bands.

Conclusion:
Unfortunately the flicker is an absolute dealbreaker. I'll keep the bulbs but they'll likely end up in the garage after I move. This is the same issue that kept me from buying Cree bulbs.

I suspect that those of you who are able to tolerate Cree bulbs without getting headaches or feeling dizzy would love these. They really would be the perfect bulb otherwise.

By the way, the flicker with two bulbs is less noticeable in my office. The larger size of the room reduces the perceived brightness. It's still a problem though, and I was planning on placing at least four bulbs there.

It's a shame they didn't work out for you

I checked on my phone camera and saw the same banding, so I see what you mean now. I guess my eyes are just tolerant of flicker. They work really well for me.

Unfortunately these seem to be the only 4000k LED sources available right now, and with the move to cheaper and cheaper bulbs, it may be a while before a really good 4000k bulb is made :/

CoveAxe said:

Unfortunately these seem to be the only 4000k LED sources available right now, and with the move to cheaper and cheaper bulbs, it may be a while before a really good 4000k bulb is made :/

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It really is a shame. This is the perfect color temperature I've been looking for but I might have to wait a few years to give another model a try. Not many reputable manufacturers do anything other than 2700k/3000k/5000k.

I've decided to return the bulbs- these are expensive to keep around for a garage. I'll probably just go for halogen there.

amd20x6 said:

It really is a shame. This is the perfect color temperature I've been looking for [...] Not many reputable manufacturers do anything other than 2700k/3000k/5000k.

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I believe the "cool white" version of the 3M LED bulb was also 4000K, unfortunately a few other members in this forum commented that the 3M bulb had flicker also.

TCP lighting makes a 4100K (10 Watt LED) bulb, you might try ordering one of those online (though there might be a minimum order requirement, since TCP tends to target the commercial lighting market).

There is also the Kobi Electric K0M8 10-watt Omni Directional A19 LED 4000K "Neutral White".

Another thought, Green Creative also makes a dimmable version in 4000K, it's possible that version might not have flicker.
I know from experience that getting a bulb from a certain brand that has flicker does not mean all versions made by that brand will have flicker.

Flicker is a touchy thing. It really bothers some people, but other people do not even seem to notice it.
For me it's somewhat annoying when I dart my eyes across the room, the effect is noticeable, so it is certainly an undesirable attribute, but I would not say it is horrible. The 60Hz flicker from cheap LED Christmas light strings are unbearably annoying to me, though.

Agree on the 60hz flicker on cheap,non rectified christmas lights! It is so bad,it looks more like vibration than flicker! Dont know how people can put that junk on their tree and stand to look at it,especially when it it is easily avoidable by purchasing rectified strings.

Another thought, Green Creative also makes a dimmable version in 4000K, it's possible that version might not have flicker.

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Just to save people some trouble, I had also ordered another Green Creative Titanium bulb but of a completely different form factor and wattage and that also has flicker according to my phone camera. I would guess that they did the same thing Cree did which is make a platform and roll it out over their entire line with the only changes being heatsink and minor circuitry changes. So I wouldn't count on any of the other green creative bulbs having any different of a flicker.

Flicker is a touchy thing. It really bothers some people, but other people do not even seem to notice it.
For me it's somewhat annoying when a dart my eyes across the room, the effect is noticeable, so it is certainly an undesirable attribute, but I would not say it is horrible. The 60Hz flicker from cheap LED Christmas light strings are unbearably annoying to me, though.

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You're telling me. Even though I now know these bulbs flicker, I still can't see it even if I try to look for it. I'm guessing most people just don't notice 120 Hz flicker.

As for 60 Hz Christmas lights, that I do notice easily. It's really irritating that christmas light manufacturers don't just include an extra two diodes to make it a fully rectified bridge, but I'm guessing that since most consumers buy christmas lights on form factor and cost alone, that the extra cost makes them lose market share compared to others that don't.

I ended up replacing the GC bulbs with Utilitech (Feit) 100W eq. bulbs. They're 100 lm/W, 3000k, tested at 85CRI. NO visible 120Hz flicker in the same small bathroom. Very minimal hum.

Not the color temperature I wanted, not rated for enclosed fixtures, iffy warranty, very directional. They work for now though, and in fact work great in a 5-head bendable floor lamp.

The best part? They're only $10.98 Lowe's. My local store doesn't carry this entire line but I was in another city yesterday and was able to pick some up. They also have a 60W eq. version that looks and behaves otherwise identically for $2.48/bulb.

I do now see the 4000k alternatives also in the $20+ price range. I'll wait on those until they're shown to be without flicker- it's not worth the hassle when I've found something that works for me.

Unfortunately what you can't see can hurt you. Even if you can't visibly notice flicker, it may be causing physiological issues, especially if doing continuous fine visual work, i.e. reading. I can tolerate a Cree bulb in a room, but I personally would not read under one.

Most LED driver designs today for bulbs are almost exclusively single stage designs and the level of flicker is pretty much a factor of the size of the output capacitor, though if you through PF/THD out the window, it is easier to get low flicker as you can put a capacitor of some size on the AC side. In dimmable designs, that normally is not an option. You can also add some output linear filtering but that adds cost/size and reduces efficiency.

Unfortunately, so called AC\high voltage driver designs are also hitting the market and they have wicked flicker. There are methods to reduce flicker, but most implementations are just doing the "minimum".

SemiMan said:

Unfortunately what you can't see can hurt you. Even if you can't visibly notice flicker, it may be causing physiological issues, especially if doing continuous fine visual work, i.e. reading. I can tolerate a Cree bulb in a room, but I personally would not read under one.

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Valid point. I just tried the camera trick on the new bulbs and they all have a flicker pattern. The amplitude must be lower than that of the GC bulbs but it is definitely present.

This includes the aforementioned Utilitech 0557095/0596930 bulbs as well as a set of 92CRI BPCEAG800/927/LED/3 bulbs I also purchased from Costco. The latter are lighter than any other bulb I've tried. They likely don't have potting compound and emit a borderline unacceptable amount of buzzing noise.

I'm very happy with my Philips bulbs. These are the 3x L-Prize, 9x 424382, and 1x 451906. All are measured by others to have negligible flicker. I just want something a little less yellow than these... and a few more high CRI bulbs

The early Philips were 2 stage drivers with pretty much no flicker. Then price took over.

The 1000 lumen IKEA bulb had low flicker a year ago ... No idea now.

Unfortunately, so called AC\high voltage driver designs are also hitting the market and they have wicked flicker. There are methods to reduce flicker, but most implementations are just doing the "minimum".

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Do you happen to know which bulbs use the new AC-driver methods? I've read them about several months ago and I remember being skeptical at the time of their claim of low flicker, but awaited an actual measurement before passing judgement.

Anyway, it doesn't surprise me about the minimum being used. Consumers just frankly don't care about it compared to cost (and in a way, I'm even one of those since it doesn't bother me). The only way I see this changing is if flicker performance standards became part of a revised energy star certification. Or maybe if LED packages get much cheaper (i.e. they fix droop) so that the BOM for the rest of the bulb can be increased a bit.

CoveAxe said:

Do you happen to know which bulbs use the new AC-driver methods? I've read them about several months ago and I remember being skeptical at the time of their claim of low flicker, but awaited an actual measurement before passing judgement.

Anyway, it doesn't surprise me about the minimum being used. Consumers just frankly don't care about it compared to cost (and in a way, I'm even one of those since it doesn't bother me). The only way I see this changing is if flicker performance standards became part of a revised energy star certification. Or maybe if LED packages get much cheaper (i.e. they fix droop) so that the BOM for the rest of the bulb can be increased a bit.

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The LEDs are already pretty cheap ... and getting cheaper.

There was a Samsung (or LG) bulb, can't remember. In terms of downlights, a couple of the HD house brand flush mounts, and some of the Acuity (may be marked Lithonia) are AC. Expect to see more unfortunately.

Again, that you can't see it or even perceive it does not mean it is not effecting you. It comes down to exposure time.

There is a push for flicker in the new EnergyStar spec.

Semiman

CoveAxe said:

You're telling me. Even though I now know these bulbs flicker, I still can't see it even if I try to look for it. I'm guessing most people just don't notice 120 Hz flicker.

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The effect is very subtle, but like I said, I do notice the effect if I quickly dart my eyes across the room, just feels a little strange. I give it the pencil waving test. Take a pencil between two fingers and rapidly wave it back and forth, against a dark background. If the light has flicker, you will see light and dark bands in the blur of the pencil's path.

It is not as if the light is actually turning all the way off 120 times per second, it is just that the light level is modulating in intensity. That is why the flicker with some LED bulbs is worse than others.

The LEDs are already pretty cheap ... and getting cheaper.

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Not enough for bulbs. You need about 50-100 LEDs for a normal bulb at an acceptable efficiency, and each LED is using expensive substrate material. So far cost reductions have come from economies of scale and some sacrifice in quality (e.g. 4Flow), but there is a limit to how far that can go. Fixing droop would easily allow use of only a tenth of the LEDs or less than what is used now, decreasing cost and part count significantly.

There was a Samsung (or LG) bulb, can't remember. In terms of downlights, a couple of the HD house brand flush mounts, and some of the Acuity (may be marked Lithonia) are AC. Expect to see more unfortunately.

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Just a quick look at this review for a Lithonia downlight doesn't show the AC driver that I was reading about, but a cheaper version of it from the looks of it. The "better" standard has capacitors for each string that is switched, like this TI one. That's the AC switching circuit that I was reading about that could, in theory, have little/no flicker if the capacitors specified correctly, but I can't find any real world products that use this system so I can't judge how well it actually works.

Again, that you can't see it or even perceive it does not mean it is not effecting you. It comes down to exposure time.

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Perhaps, but I'm under it for hours at a time and I don't notice a difference, and I'm doing things like reading just fine. Regardless, I agree that flicker should be an important aspect that is overlooked though.

There is a push for flicker in the new EnergyStar spec.

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Is there one after 2.0 being discussed? Because 2.0 does not have a flicker standard that I can find in the draft document.

IEEE working group just released a spec that is supposed go make it into Estar.

50-100 LEDs??? ... With 5630 LEDs and easily hitting 50k hours I can do over 4000 lumens at 90-100 lumens/watt.

800 lumens with 20-5630 LEDs at 80+ CRI and good efficiency is easy. We are talking LEDs that are <$0.05 USD each.

Ti solution PF/thd goes in the toilet with larger caps.

IEEE working group just released a spec that is supposed go make it into Estar.

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Was it the IEEE PAR1789 working group? Do you happen to know where they published the spec? I can't find it anywhere on their website nor on xplore.

If it's some other standard, would you happen to remember a rough title?

50-100 LEDs???

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The Cree bulbs being discontinued now had 80 LEDs/bulb in them. The new 4Flows have 64 LEDs/bulb. I don't know of any ~60W equivalent with much less than this in the 100lm/W range. No manufacturer has solved droop yet, so I'm not sure how it's possible to get better than that.

800 lumens with 20-5630 LEDs at 80+ CRI

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You're forgetting that each 5630 package has 3 LEDs in it. So your 20 is actually 60 LEDs. Even at $0.05/package, that's a whole dollar of BOM that could be done for less than 10 cents once droop in fixed. That is significant, not even counting other parts that could be eliminated as well.