From what I've read about battery safety, I've always assumed that if a battery were to vent...with or without flame? .... then that's obviously a disaster waiting to happen. But... does anyone consider venting to be a "normal" response to an overheated (or bad) battery as to PREVENT an explosion? In other words...is the battery MADE to vent, instead of exploding?
Question about venting
- Thread starter RBWNY
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
more_vampires
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 3,475
Pretty much all batteries vent a little during charging and high drain. This is considered normal. Prevent a slang-term "KB," yes. Explosion is the wrong word.
Correct term: pressure failure of a sealed vessel.
"Clip vs Magazine on a gun forum."
Explosion is a shockwave passing through certain chemicals. No confinement is required. Strength of container limits maximum energy developed in a flashlight event.
Yes, the steel jacket of an 18650 has vents for safety. Highly unlikely to be fatal, but can ruin your day. If you breathe that crap, evacuate everyone and to to the ER.
Correct term: pressure failure of a sealed vessel.
"Clip vs Magazine on a gun forum."
Explosion is a shockwave passing through certain chemicals. No confinement is required. Strength of container limits maximum energy developed in a flashlight event.
Yes, the steel jacket of an 18650 has vents for safety. Highly unlikely to be fatal, but can ruin your day. If you breathe that crap, evacuate everyone and to to the ER.
Last edited:
HKJ
Flashaholic
Yes.
Most batteries has a airtight seal that breaks at a high pressure, making the battery vent.
There is a few photos of it here: http://lygte-info.dk/info/isMyBatteryProtected UK.html
The venting gas can be flammable and this may be the reason for many flashlight explosion.
Thanks for the responses so far! I guess I was right in my assumption, but needed full clarification. I've read many online reviews of cheap batteries...such as Ultrafire...and while most people think they're great, a select few have written about them getting hot...starting to smoke...and the charger connectors turning bright red! So, the assumption was that if they did nothing and let the event continue...then "POP" goes the weasel!
more_vampires
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 3,475
Bursting sir. It's easy enough a slip. I do it, too.
If we are the top 1%, is it any wonder reporters are near 100% to get it wrong? More like matches in a sealed steel container, less like "ZOMG BOMBZ!"
Respectfully.
more_vampires
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 3,475
How about more like this:
Light a match, watch it burn. It isn't like getting punched in the face. Yes, there is heat, but it is slowly released.
Now, wrap the head in aluminum foil to make a "match rocket." (Search engine for "match rocket.")
The energy of the match plus a shred of aluminum foil is enough to launch the tiny match a few feet. 10 if you had it nearly perfect.
The difference? Containment. As stated before, strength of the container limits the maximum energy of the burst. There's still more burning going on in a vent with flame event, but the container has already burst. The "hard slap" has already happened, the rest of the energy does not contribute to the burst. "Wasted," so to speak. It's the difference between a campfire and dynamite.
This is how a bursting flashlight is fundamentally different from an explosive. In a real explosive, the energy "goes all at once" and that's why no confinement is required for an actual explosive. Big difference, though it may seem small.
Breathing the stuff is a top hazard, as is burning down your house. The limits of the system mean that any frag is highly likely to be "less than lethal." More like a stingball grenade or a flashbang. It cannot blow your arm off, or it would have happened already. Please point us to a case where someone lost an arm, we must read and study the case. It'll be new to us, AFAIK.
If you're worried about it, use a plastic host 18650x1 non-multicell P60 with a moderately driven module, 2 amp max maybe? You'll likely never ever have a problem and even if you do, the container is not strong enough to do much of anything.
NiMH is far safer, use that if you have kids. Lock up the lithium.
Light a match, watch it burn. It isn't like getting punched in the face. Yes, there is heat, but it is slowly released.
Now, wrap the head in aluminum foil to make a "match rocket." (Search engine for "match rocket.")
The energy of the match plus a shred of aluminum foil is enough to launch the tiny match a few feet. 10 if you had it nearly perfect.
The difference? Containment. As stated before, strength of the container limits the maximum energy of the burst. There's still more burning going on in a vent with flame event, but the container has already burst. The "hard slap" has already happened, the rest of the energy does not contribute to the burst. "Wasted," so to speak. It's the difference between a campfire and dynamite.
This is how a bursting flashlight is fundamentally different from an explosive. In a real explosive, the energy "goes all at once" and that's why no confinement is required for an actual explosive. Big difference, though it may seem small.
Breathing the stuff is a top hazard, as is burning down your house. The limits of the system mean that any frag is highly likely to be "less than lethal." More like a stingball grenade or a flashbang. It cannot blow your arm off, or it would have happened already. Please point us to a case where someone lost an arm, we must read and study the case. It'll be new to us, AFAIK.
If you're worried about it, use a plastic host 18650x1 non-multicell P60 with a moderately driven module, 2 amp max maybe? You'll likely never ever have a problem and even if you do, the container is not strong enough to do much of anything.
NiMH is far safer, use that if you have kids. Lock up the lithium.
Last edited:
WalkIntoTheLight
Flashlight Enthusiast
I know that a flooded lead-acid battery will vent a bit of hydrogen during charging. But if your lithium-ion or NiMH batteries are venting, it's not normal and they're getting damaged. In the case of a venting lithium-ion, even if just a little bit, I'd throw it away. Better to not take a chance. For a NiMH cell, I'd probably still keep it.
Venting during discharging sounds bad. I've heard the horror stories of lithium-ion batteries doing that. I didn't realize NiMH cells would do that during discharge, unless they were reverse-charged. But I guess if any battery gets hot enough, it will vent.
Reportedly, the Zebralight SC5 pulls 6 amps from a NiMH cell. I hope that's a safe discharge current.
more_vampires
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 3,475
A tiny little vent might bulge or pop off a switch boot. It's a whole different ballgame than rupturing an aluminum body light with vent with flame.
A CPFer here vented an Eneloop in a multicell setup when he got the polarity wrong on one of the cells. It fizzed a bit, got hot. NiMH isn't particularly an inhalation hazard, but I wouldn't touch the juice or breathe the vapor.
Normal vent: you probably wont notice. The quantity of gas is miniscule, therefore a dosage that may well be diluted beyond notice in a small room. Again, I advise against lion charging indoors, particularly in a small room.
Vent with flame in lithium ion: OW OW OW OW! Time to go to the emergency room. Aw, crap, my light is trashed!
Call HAZMAT response to perform a cleanup operation. 911. Not CPF. CPF is for before the event, possibly preventing it by education in do's and don'ts.
Back when I was a hazmat responder, I was shocked to discover the easiest lithium ion cleanup prep.
Quarantine the area for 1 month, then investigate. The stuff is highly reactive, so let it react and negate the airborne hazard. To do it right, you sorta kinda need to remodel your house now.... kiss the carpet goodbye... If you're lucky and not in a congested urban area, a guy in a banana suit (trained in DECON) can open the windows to speed things up a bit. If you don't know what DECON is, then buying hazmat gear is a bad idea... you might be tempted to use it.
Don't go back into the house until the "all clear" is given by trained professionals.
Outdoor cleanup? Wait for it to rain. A few lion cells won't generate enough of a "plume" to be an issue downrange past feet or dozen yards due to the wind dispersal effect.
It's why I keep saying to charge your lithium ion OUTSIDE and not in your bedroom. I will NEVER charge a system-pull 18650 indoors.
YMMV, IWAHMR (I was a hazmat responder.)
Note to the dear reader: You probably don't own class B or class C chem gear. Don't take my word for it and don't call me as I don't do this work anymore and am not current. I may not have heard of newer techniques after my time on watch.
Call the pros. In the US, their phone number is 911. You can't handle this alone if it were indoors.
Note we're talking about a handful of cells. This isn't a truckload of cells. An important hazmat concept is quantity. Less is safer, of course. A truckload of cells might do a fuel-air burst or something like that. Definitely an incendiary hazard, but a different game than just one multicell flashlight.
A CPFer here vented an Eneloop in a multicell setup when he got the polarity wrong on one of the cells. It fizzed a bit, got hot. NiMH isn't particularly an inhalation hazard, but I wouldn't touch the juice or breathe the vapor.
Normal vent: you probably wont notice. The quantity of gas is miniscule, therefore a dosage that may well be diluted beyond notice in a small room. Again, I advise against lion charging indoors, particularly in a small room.
Vent with flame in lithium ion: OW OW OW OW! Time to go to the emergency room. Aw, crap, my light is trashed!
Call HAZMAT response to perform a cleanup operation. 911. Not CPF. CPF is for before the event, possibly preventing it by education in do's and don'ts.
Back when I was a hazmat responder, I was shocked to discover the easiest lithium ion cleanup prep.
Quarantine the area for 1 month, then investigate. The stuff is highly reactive, so let it react and negate the airborne hazard. To do it right, you sorta kinda need to remodel your house now.... kiss the carpet goodbye... If you're lucky and not in a congested urban area, a guy in a banana suit (trained in DECON) can open the windows to speed things up a bit. If you don't know what DECON is, then buying hazmat gear is a bad idea... you might be tempted to use it.
Don't go back into the house until the "all clear" is given by trained professionals.
Outdoor cleanup? Wait for it to rain. A few lion cells won't generate enough of a "plume" to be an issue downrange past feet or dozen yards due to the wind dispersal effect.
It's why I keep saying to charge your lithium ion OUTSIDE and not in your bedroom. I will NEVER charge a system-pull 18650 indoors.
YMMV, IWAHMR (I was a hazmat responder.)
Note to the dear reader: You probably don't own class B or class C chem gear. Don't take my word for it and don't call me as I don't do this work anymore and am not current. I may not have heard of newer techniques after my time on watch.
Call the pros. In the US, their phone number is 911. You can't handle this alone if it were indoors.
Note we're talking about a handful of cells. This isn't a truckload of cells. An important hazmat concept is quantity. Less is safer, of course. A truckload of cells might do a fuel-air burst or something like that. Definitely an incendiary hazard, but a different game than just one multicell flashlight.
Last edited:
I had read on Amazon from someone who said their 4000mAh 18650's felt "very warm" against their skin while being used within a headlamp! They weren't sure if the problem WAS the batteries or the unit! Frying your batteries is one thing...but not your brain!
WalkIntoTheLight
Flashlight Enthusiast
It gets down as low as -30C in the winter where I live. I don't think it's wise to charge lithium-ion below 0C.
Use IMR chemistry for lithium-ion cells, instead of ICR. The IMR are less dangerous if they vent.
more_vampires
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 3,475
HKJ; I have nothing but respect for an extremely knowledgeable person. Love ya, man. You rock!
I know I don't know everything.
I know for a fact that many here know more about batteries than I do. I was just the poor guy in the banana suit potentially standing in poison gas.
I'm no HKJ, that's certain. Sorry if I came off as arrogant, that was not my intention.
We all have(had) our specialties. By the way, did I mention I'm not a lawyer?
Good point, whereas I kill mosquitoes on New Year's Day. Thermal shock of lithium ion cells, yes. That's bad.
There's a few threads here of people with NiMH reporting bulging switch boots and the occasional pop-off. Higher drain lights seem more likely to do it, but that's more anecdotal and less a scientific eval.
I trust ZL, but 6A seems quite a lot for a single NiMH, IMHO. I'll get one eventually.
I know I don't know everything.
I know for a fact that many here know more about batteries than I do. I was just the poor guy in the banana suit potentially standing in poison gas.
I'm no HKJ, that's certain. Sorry if I came off as arrogant, that was not my intention.
We all have(had) our specialties. By the way, did I mention I'm not a lawyer?
Good point, whereas I kill mosquitoes on New Year's Day.
Thermal shock of lithium ion cells, yes. That's bad. There's a few threads here of people with NiMH reporting bulging switch boots and the occasional pop-off. Higher drain lights seem more likely to do it, but that's more anecdotal and less a scientific eval.
I trust ZL, but 6A seems quite a lot for a single NiMH, IMHO. I'll get one eventually.
Last edited:
