When will the 18xxx cells catch up to 18650

Okay I understand that 18650 are used in laptops and tool battery packs so they are getting the most new technology. I have some of IMR cells that are good for 3000 milliamp hours and still support a 20 amp draw. I was just wondering if you guys think if the 18350 and 18500 will ever get some of this new technology. I mean an 18500 could easily be 2000mah and support 12amps. Obviously I prefer IMR cells. I know battery makers don't care about flashaholics but vaping is huge and those guys(me included) use some serious amps

Here's the thing. No R&D needs to be performed on any other battery size to 'catch it up' to 18650s. All of these batteries are made from rolling flat cell material into a spiral and sticking it in a metal case. The same material that is used to make a high capacoty 18650 could just as well be cut to size to make an 18350 or 18500. Or, for that matter, a 16340 of decent capacity. Whether any manufacturer has any interest in doing this is another matter.

I wasn't aware of that. That's neat. So that makes it even worse that no one is doing it then. I don't think we've gotten new cells in those sizes in 5+ years

vicv said:

I wasn't aware of that. That's neat. So that makes it even worse that no one is doing it then. I don't think we've gotten new cells in those sizes in 5+ years

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You've got it! The only thing standing in the way of better non-18650 cells is the lack of desire on the part of manufacturers to build such cells.

StorminMatt said:

Here's the thing. No R&D needs to be performed on any other battery size to 'catch it up' to 18650s. All of these batteries are made from rolling flat cell material into a spiral and sticking it in a metal case. The same material that is used to make a high capacoty 18650 could just as well be cut to size to make an 18350 or 18500. Or, for that matter, a 16340 of decent capacity. Whether any manufacturer has any interest in doing this is another matter.

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An that can only be done by factories that have access to the newest technology, not all has that.

There is also the detail about releasing a new battery type: Documentation and approvals, that can cost a significant amount of money. I.e. it is only worth doing for batteries that sells.

HKJ said:

An that can only be done by factories that have access to the newest technology, not all has that.

There is also the detail about releasing a new battery type: Documentation and approvals, that can cost a significant amount of money. I.e. it is only worth doing for batteries that sells.

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Good point about access to technology. Efest, for instance, is not going to be using the technology of the NCR18650GA to make a high capacity 16340 or 18350. And Sanyo/Panasonic has no interest, probably because they feel the cells won't sell in sufficient volume to make it worthwhile.

Efest isn't a manufacturer though. They rewrap and distribute others cells. But ya 18650 is THE cell size used by almost all industries. Wishful thinking I guess. The form factor of the smaller cells is so nice though

vicv said:

But ya 18650 is THE cell size used by almost all industries.

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Not as much as in the past. Laptops, for instance, have largely abandoned the format in favor of lithium polymer as they have tried to make thinner products. And there are signs that Tesla may abandon 18650s in favor of a larger format. It will be interesting to see how this affects 18650 development, especially since it seems that Li-Ion has hit a wall in terms of energy density.

StorminMatt said:

Not as much as in the past. Laptops, for instance, have largely abandoned the format in favor of lithium polymer as they have tried to make thinner products. And there are signs that Tesla may abandon 18650s in favor of a larger format. It will be interesting to see how this affects 18650 development, especially since it seems that Li-Ion has hit a wall in terms of energy density.

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There have been some news releases about advances in the microstructure of materials used in the electrolyte, and in the separator membrane that might bring energy density up some, but it seems like most of the possible improvements are working towards longer lifetime at the same density.

StorminMatt said:

And there are signs that Tesla may abandon 18650s in favor of a larger format. It will be interesting to see how this affects 18650 development, especially since it seems that Li-Ion has hit a wall in terms of energy density.

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Tesla has confirmed it will be making and using its design of a 21700 cell in its new products. It will be interesting to see if they will be retrofitting their 18650-based batteries to use the 21700 cell as well. By retrofitting I mean using the 21700 cell rather than the 18650 cell in the replacement battery packs they are making for the existing vehicles.

I did a risque test
took apart two 18650 batteries, unrolled one, and rolled the foil onto another one....

CuriousOne said:

I did a risque test
took apart two 18650 batteries, unrolled one, and rolled the foil onto another one....

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What happened? *curious*

I've used an very old, completely drained cells, to avoid possible fire as much as possible. Nothing happened, besides the fact, that I was not able to give it full cylindrical shape. The inner part of the rolled film has small radius, so it is hard to flatten it as needed.

18500 or 18350 will never catch up the 18650, when will be the time that an 18350 cell to have 1500-2000mAh, the 18650 cell will have 7-8000 mAh.
Years ago I said on another forum that in future we will see a stable 18650 cell with 3600 mah ore more, everybody disagreed because of the chemistry is not possible, that already the limit of the cell was achieved (at that time if I remember correctly the highest cell was around 3000mAh) .
Well we don't have yet that 3600 mAh cell, but is close

For now is almost unimaginable to see an 18350 cell with 1500-2000 mAh or 18500 with 3000 mAh. But I think will be possible in ~10 years.

A supplier told me, that they have real 18350 with 1300mAh capacity. I'll try to get these cells asap.

Octavian said:

18500 or 18350 will never catch up the 18650, .....
For now is almost unimaginable to see an 18350 cell with 1500-2000 mAh or 18500 with 3000 mAh. But I think will be possible in ~10 years.

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You didn't understand the question correctly, they are not looking to match capacity. They want to match technology... very different.

CuriousOne said:

A supplier told me, that they have real 18350 with 1300mAh capacity. I'll try to get these cells asap.

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The 18350 cell is the most likely cell to get more recent tech since it is now becoming popular with Vapers. I already like 850mAh versions, as I never touch 16340 rechargeables. I would be very excited about anything 1000mAh or above. The one problem is few flashlights accept them, but that could change. There are a couple good ones now, and I saw a recent one that uses a small sleeve so it is a good fit for 18350 or 16340. It's really too bad the S-mini does not support 18350, maybe the next version.

I have some Trustfire 18350's, which measure 890-925mAh. But they are ICR chemistry, for low discharge currents.

StorminMatt said:

Good point about access to technology. Efest, for instance, is not going to be using the technology of the NCR18650GA to make a high capacity 16340 or 18350. And Sanyo/Panasonic has no interest, probably because they feel the cells won't sell in sufficient volume to make it worthwhile.

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I don't think vaping is huge and the same applies to flashlighting. It's all small potatoes relative to industrial uses. Who knows? With Tesla shifting to larger cells 18650 might become extinct or a niche product in the next decade.

18650 are used a lot in power tools. Much larger market, than vaping.

CuriousOne said:

18650 are used a lot in power tools. Much larger market, than vaping.

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That's a good point. I'd definitely want my power tool battery pack to be built using metal-cased cylindrical cells, not plastic-pouched cells. That way, if I drop it ten feet onto concrete, I might well smash the plastic casing of the battery pack and have to buy a new one, but I'm highly unlikely to puncture the cells or do enough damage to trigger a thermal runaway.