O/T - 3 phase door opener phase converter needed

[VegasF6]

Trying to help out a friend. He has a 3 phase door opener, half horse motor and a 115V control box. It's made by Minaka, Minkata, something or other, I guess it's kind of older but never used. Anyhow, trying to figure out what he could use, was really hoping to get away with a small static phase converter. A small amount of online research calls this a "medium load." I know with static phase converter you have to de-rate the motor, but this is a relatively small door, I think 8 ft wide, 10' high so hopefully even at 2/3 power it could handle things.

Anyhow, called Enco today to talk to a sales associate and the said need a rotary phase converter. They suggested a 7.5 HP for $1129. Well that wasn't the answer we hoped to hear! I haven't called anyone else like drive warehouse or ??? Suggestions? Comments?

How do you rate a rotary phase converter size wise? Apparently a 2 HP converter doesn't mean you can connect it to a 2 HP motor...

 

[VegasF6]

Oh yah, and if a static phase converter isn't the right choice, in what situations would they be ok?

 

[precisionworks]

Quite a few questions, VF6, so let's look at those one at a time ...

if a static phase converter isn't the right choice, in what situations would they be ok?

A static converter does no conversion, as it does not generate the third leg of a 3ph power circuit. A static box (sorry, that's what it is) contains capacitors that charge up & dump enough power into a 3ph motor to get the motor up to speed, at which time the caps are dropped out of the circuit. The 3ph motor is then run on 2ph, which is why a static box allows the motor to produce only 2/3 of nameplate horsepower. They are an excellent way to build a self starting (or autostart) rotary converter.

Some people use them with great success. Lots of people use them to turn a good 3ph motor into a boat anchor. They are a band aid approach.

How do you rate a rotary phase converter size wise? Apparently a 2 HP converter doesn't mean you can connect it to a 2 HP motor...

That is correct. For a hard starting load (like a non-clutched gear head lathe, or a non clutched overhead door opener), rule of thumb is anywhere from 2X to 4X motor hp. My 3hp lathe is run from a 10hp RPC, and it will start in any gear, with any heavy chuck and any part in the chuck.

Problem is (for this app) that the RPC either has to be started every time the door is raised or lowered, or it has to run all day long. They don't cost a lot to run, but they do use some amount of electricity at idle.

Suggestions? Comments?

Three that come to mind are VFD, VFD, and VFD

Cheap, efficient, easy to install. A VFD in this app is a no brainer.

 

[VegasF6]

Yah? I was thinking VFD was overkill in this case, thanks Barry. Found this elsewhere:

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]What size service do I need to run a phase converter? [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]As with power draw (see prior question), service sizing depends on the amount of the total connected load. The best way to size the incoming single-phase service is to add the full-load running amps of all the 3-phase loads that will operate simultaneously. The National Electric Code requires the service to be at least 250% of the total 3-phase load amps"[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Is the same true for a VFD? For this opener, or for my lathe, I will need to size it 250% greater than load current?
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[precisionworks]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For this opener, or for my lathe, I will need to size it 250% greater than load current?[/FONT]

The only time that a VFD is upsized (aka derated) is when the drive is designed for 3ph input and supplied with 1ph power, as it would be in a home shop/small commercial shop. If your lathe had a 10hp motor, and it was supplied with 240v 1ph power, you'd need a 20hp drive, as there's no drive I know of that will run from 240v 1ph and supply 10hp.

For motors 3hp and below, drives are designed for either 1ph input or 3ph input, so select the 1ph model when placing an order. For fractional hp motors, like that on the door opener, they are available for 120v 1ph input, which makes installation super easy.

Look at the ACTech SMVector Configured Part Number EV371N01SXB ($196.35 at Wolf Automation). Or the Teco Westinghouse Configured Part NumberJNEV-1P5-H1 ($136.74 from the same source).

For machine tool use, the SMVector wins hands down. For the door opener, the less expensive Teco EV is a great choice, and it costs not a lot more than a static box. The factory control box can be used with some modification - you'll need to figure out the logic terminal arrangements so that the UP/DOWN buttons are used as make/break switches only, they are no longer supplied with 120v at the control box. Teco tech support is excellent & will walk you through the setup if you need help.

 

[gadget_lover]

I may be way off, but since it's only 1/2 horse, couldn't you replace the whole garage door opener for a fraction of the price of a VFD, RPC or other kludge?

Dan

 

[will]

I may be way off, but since it's only 1/2 horse, couldn't you replace the whole garage door opener for a fraction of the price of a VFD, RPC or other kludge?

Dan

+1

 

[precisionworks]

$150 will buy the bottom of the barrel opener in 1/2 hp, $200 gets a decent one, $225-$300 gets a nice one. I'd imagine the opener is heavy duty, as are most 3ph openers, probably in the $300 or more range. $136 for the VFD is pretty cheap to run a nice opener.

 

[VegasF6]

Barry, yah we have discussed the AC Tech before, I am sold on that one for me! I will pass on the recomendation for the Teco on his. I had the manual to look at but I gave it back. Sounds like it will be a bit more to hooking it up than I thought too!

The door opener came from an auction at a local door business that went under. Supposedly it's about $1400 bucks for this thing. According to some other door shop it's well made but not like they do now a days, with less electronics inside and more actual mechanical parts? I dunno just trying to help out a friend.

 

[350xfire]

You can find a VFD for 1/2 horse on Ebay for about $60-70.

 

[precisionworks]

VFD for 1/2 horse on Ebay for about $60-70.

I buy everything on eBay - shoes, suits, books, you name it ... everything but VFD's :nana:

Either they are obsolete & even documentation cannot be obtained, or they lack a display or keypad, or they need 480 volt input, or they are brand new Best of Chung King China ... the list is endless. There must be some good buys on eBay drives, but after looking at hundreds of listings I have yet to purchase one.

All the brand name drives (ACTech, Teco, Hitachi, Fuji, Siemens, A-B, etc.,) come with both a warranty and full factory support. Most eBay drives come with neither, and you pay shipping both ways if you end up with a dud.

It is less risky to buy a Russian wife on eBay than a VFD

 

[VegasF6]

It is less risky to buy a Russian wife on eBay than a VFD

Funny

If I really knew what I was doing I might buy one on eBay. There are even a few Lenze on occasionaly. But, in my case the phone support will be priceless. I know I can lean on you all here for answers but still nothing like factory support in this case.

 

[unterhausen]

I buy everything on eBay - shoes, suits, books, you name it ... everything but VFD's :nana:

I can't disagree with this, but I've had really good luck. One thing I learned about buying things like a VFD on ebay is that you have to make sure you can find the manual online before you bid. Prices for stuff where the manual isn't available are generally really low, so they are tempting. Good way to waste a lot of money.

I bought a VFD with a broken display/keypad unit. From what I saw, it had taken a physical blow and broken the lcd, so when I got it I just went through my stack of LCDs and replaced it. Works fine. I don't expect that to happen every time though.

I guess you don't save enough nowadays to make the risk worth it. I wouldn't say that the newer drives are all that much better, but they have certainly been engineering the cost out of them

 

[65535]

I managed to get a GE/Fuji AF-300 Mini 1 HP 120VAC 1PH VFD for $80 on eBay. Runs up a Baldor TEFC 1725rpm just great.

Brand new sealed in box with manual.

 

[VegasF6]

Got the brand, it is a Micanan similar to this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cookson-Jacksha...526?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bc36217e

Also passed on the information, it's in his hands now guys, thanks a bunch!

 

[Norm]

This has nothing to do with flashlights, moved from the flashlight forums.
Norm