Why doesn't Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I recently bought a first run Arc-LS. I was planning to run it EDC with a single AA, but was informed by the dealer that the new Arc-LS do not support the 1AA battery configuration, and that even if I wanted to, I could not buy the single AA body.

Can anyone tell me what are the technical reasons behind this decision by Arc not to use single AA with the Arc-LS? Or is it merely a marketing reason, being in preparation for the 5W version, which of course would not be capable of running of a single AA?

BTW, I think I have the 500mA version as the inside is a gold button on a brown PCB. I ran a informal test using a single AA lithium and some loose wiring to complete the circuit. It appears to be a sustainable configuration, though of course it is dimmer than when running with the full 3V.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Gransee
Moderator
Member # 187

posted 09-05-2002 02:06 PM
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The pack lineup is in a bit of flux now that new issues have surfaced. We need to make sense of the mess and simplify as much possible otherwise we will just be further delayed on this new flashlight. The 2x123 pack may only be offered in the tail switch version. The 1x123 may have a limited number of rev2 diameter packs w/out tailswitch. If there are enough, they may be the default.

As far as using the rev1 1xAA pack with a rev2 head (LS2 or LS3)... It is not designed to work with it and is not recommended.

However, it will work but only with a fresh battery. I haven't tested it over a long period, but you may get a half hour from a new alkaline before the load voltage drops below the 1.4v cuttoff. A single NiMH will certainly not fire up the rev2 circuit, I tested that as well. Best runtimes with the 1xAA pack will definately be realized with a AA lithium.

Again, using this pack with the rev2 heads is not recommended. I don't have it out for the single AA size or anything. I asked Wayne to, if at all possible, design our new circuit to operate down to less than 1 volt. But we would have had to sacrifice in other areas (brightness, compactness, current regulation).

Peter

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

That sums it up pretty good. It will work with 1 AA lithium but it's too expensive to do a run-test. The 1.4v cut-off also helps to keep you from over draining your 2 AA NiMH batteries.

Best advice, get an older Arc LS that is not a hybrid, I had one and just sold it. They run for a long time (6+ hours) on 1 AA but at diminished brightness.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Thanks to JohnG and Sean for all the info. I'm not planning to get another Arc-LS just yet. Needed one to satisfy the flashoholic in me, but will wait until the design settles down a little more before I plonk down another couple of hundred on a flashlight.

Too bad about the single AA battery configuration. I just tested out the Arc-LS on a trail walk in the middle of the night. Super bright, just as advertised. And since this is the 500mA model, it is, I think, brighter than the usual 400mA version. An LED version of the SureFire E1, about the same brightness as my UKE mini-Q40 on lithiums. I could certainly EDC it with only half the output and still find it sufficient.

BTW, having this version of the hybrids is almost like having that first Arc-AAA version. Because the threads on the CR123 body are just a few too short to allow the o-ring to engage properly, I've had to do that trick with the self-vulcanising rubber so that there is enough grip that the head doesn't come loose and fall off, or switch on by itself. Got it to fit well, so now I'm finally happy with the light... to a degree anyway. When are we going to see it truly waterproof?

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Sean and I have each found that even the 2AA holder with alkalines soon generates flickering dimming with the 500 mA Hybrids. These 500 "brown board" Hybrids work fine with higher current NiMHs.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I never use my single AA battery holder, prefering the CR123 holder, but I always carry the AA holder in my briefcase. Since my work is security related, I could be stranded in my workplace for days due to an emergency, possibly without power. Although I carry CR123 spares, I can use the AA holder to tap into my AA stockpile, and AA's in my radio, AA Maglites and remote controls, as well as borrowing AA's from co-workers.

Of course one could do this with the 2 x AA holder but the single holder would maximize run time per battery.

I will miss the ability to use the single AA holder when I get the LS3.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I can't understand why people are so interested in spending $150 for an Arc-LS that has a short burn time, and gets too hot to hold; to the point where a warning is etched into the bezel. I like my 2 'old' Arc-SLS's just fine; at less than half the cost of one of the brighter ones, with all three battery packs, I can feed them 123's that are dimming in my SureFires, and still get a lot of very bright runtime out of them.

No, they aren't as bright as Rev2, or (or 3), but I have no interest in trading runtime for more output, to the point where heat becomes a significant problem. When I need more light than my Arc-LS, I use one of my SureFires.

As far as I'm concerned, the Rev1 is far and away the best of the Arc-LS's, with the flexibility to use the 3 different battery packs; one of the central goals of the original planning of the Arc-LS.

If I were running Arc Flashlight, I'd incorporate all the upgrades of later revisions (better water resistance, battery contacts, etc.) into the lower output 'original' Arc-LS. Continue to sell them as the Arc-LS 'Classic'.

An Arc-LS that won't even run on 2 AA alkalines....what's the point? It won't be long before the Arc-LS will be forced into a 2 123 battery configuration.....which would only be a much more expensive, and shorter runtime E2/Kl1....

The 'old' Rev1 Arc-LS's are going to be in demand, I predict, before too long. They are, IMHO, vastly more practical for real world, every day use, than the 'new' battery eating, finger burning Arc-LS's will be.

SureFire already builds some very fine lights that are *very* bright, and eat lithium 123's at a high rate of speed. But they don't cost *nearly* as much as the 'new' Arc-Ls's are going to cost. Perhaps the Rev3 should come with a pair of asbestos gloves...

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Brother Gandalph, "Here, Here"...Yesiree!! Ditto! You have been elected "Spokesman for the Practical". For my needs and purposes, I whole-heartedly agree. I wish I had the coin to be able to buy each and everyone of the latest and greatest for collecting purposes...but I have to concentrate on what's practical for me.

Nothing wrong at all with improving a product, but at what price?! You have a good point about the engraved "warning" (and heat), runtime, different types of torch "fuel"..I like the runtime and battery flexibility of the LS1. As you've said, perhaps several versions of the LS should be sold.

Sometimes I eat with a fork, sometimes with a spoon, somtimes with my hands...different torches for different needs. And the prices indeed seem to be climbing along with the revisions (I could buy alot of lights for what the projected final version of the ARC LS will be going for).

Anodize the different models in different colors, name them different, and price them appropriately. Compare to the EternaLights, different models & features with appropriate pricing. At mimimum, "ARC LS Classic" and perhaps the "ARC LS Deluxe". But battery flexibility is a major selling point! It should be available to both lines. If it can't be done with the new circuits, then I guess that's a major selling point for the "ARC LS Classic"! General Motors doesn't produce one type of car...

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Originally posted by Gandalf:
I can't understand why people are so interested in spending $150 for an Arc-LS that has a short burn time, and gets too hot to hold; to the point where a warning is etched into the bezel. I like my 2 'old' Arc-SLS's just fine; at less than half the cost of one of the brighter ones, with all three battery packs, I can feed them 123's that are dimming in my SureFires, and still get a lot of very bright runtime out of them.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I would agree with you if we were only talking about the 500mA hybrid model. The one I had got very hot and ran only a little longer than an hour. But the new version (400mA), the one that says (hot!) on it , gets warm, not much warmer than the old style LS's & runs 2 1/2 hours on 2 NiMH AA's. That's about the same amount of time I could get out of the old version LS. I get the same run time from 1x123. With the old LS you could almost get 3 hours. This is because the new regulation circuit is more efficient than the old one.

So unless I got lucky I would say the current selling version is definately worth the small loss in run-time for a 90%~100% increase in brightness.

I would think that the 400mA version will also be easier on alkalines, maybe I should test that next.

I liked the idea of running the LS from 1AA in an emergency, but seriously, why would anyone buy this $120 light to run at half brightness? I would rather give up the 1 AA capability than give up "flat" regulation or overall brightness. If 1 AA brightness is enough for you then the Opalec Newbeam module is a better buy. It's cheaper, fully regulated & about the same brighness as the old style LS's w/1AA alkaline.

Maybe Peter should have never sold any 500mA versions with all the confusion it has caused. when I placed my order I was hoping for a 400mA version after hearing the horror stories but I got a 500mA version. BTW, My 500mA version is already on it's way back to Arc, getting replaced by a cooler running 400mA version.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Originally posted by Sean:
But the new version (400mA), the one that says (hot!) on it

, gets warm, not much warmer than the old style LS's & runs 2 1/2 hours on 2 NiMH AA's. That's about the same amount of time I could get out of the old version LS. I get the same run time from 1x123. With the old LS you could almost get 3 hours. This is because the new regulation circuit is more efficient than the old one.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sean,

Are you saying you get 2.5 hours run time from a 123 battery on your LS1 Rev2? PG said the LS2 run time would be 1.5 hours on 123. Have I missed something? Isn't yours an LS2 in all but HD?

Jim

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Actually, I haven't tested the LS1 rev2 with a 123 lithium. But I have tested the 500mA version on both 2AA NiMH 1600mAh batts & 1xDL123A lithium. I got 1 1/4 hours either way. Peter said to expect about 45 minutes but I got more. It makes sense that I got about equal times with both batteries because the DL123A is rated at 1400mAh & has a slightly higher voltage than 2AA NiMH batts rated at 1600mAh. So I assumed that since I got 2.5 hours on my LS1 rev2 with 2 AA NiMH's that I would expect the same or very similar battery life from 1xDL123A.

Yes, what I have is the same circuitry that will be used in the LS2.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I have tested the LS1-REV2 400mA (green PCB) and have achieved a good couple hours of very usable light. Here are the results. The number were taken from my LM631 with the actual ARC resting directly on the light sensor, set into LUX x 10 mode. The left column is the time of the measurement and the right column is the number on the LM631.

19:28-1800
19:35-1720
19:53-1675
20:05-1665
20:25-1652
20:50-1649
21:15-1636
21:30-1635
21:40-1633
22:03-1632
22:08-675
22:15-338

This is about 2.5 hours of very usable light. I've only done this test once and plan to test at least one more time. Take these results for what they're worth, considering no 2-lights will give you the same results. After 22:15, I stopped the test, so I don't know how long the LS would have ran in moon-mode.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Well this is a pleasant surprise. Like others above, I have been bemoaning the passing of the LS1 because of the loss of the single AA pack and what I thought was the halved runtime of the LS2. If the LS2 gets 2.5 as opposed to the LS1's 3 hours on the 123, I can certainly live with that.
Also, now that I see the mystery of the 123 rechargeables has been solved, I won't miss the single AA pack so much.
I wonder if PG instituted a change that we (I) are not aware of... There was much discussion about the decreased run time of the LS2, and now it seems to be less than a 20% reduction, and of course brighter to boot.

Jim

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I think Peter was just being modest about the run time. Since it will probably vary somewhat with each batch of luxeons he uses. I'm glad Ray's results were what I expected.

Then again, maybe Peter was planning to run the LS2 at 500mA and changed his mind when he saw how hot it got & how short the runtime was.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I almost have a 2nd test completed. Will post the results shortly. They're pretty much in-line with my 1st test.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

The 500mA version which I have gets very hot if left alone, but when held in hand from the start, it doesn't get much more than warm as my body seems to act as quite a good heat sink. It probably gets to about 40degrees, ie noticeably warm, like a tepid shower.

I guess in all the runtime tests, the light is left on its own and gets as hot as it will ever get since there is no other path for the heat to leave the flashlight other than air (which is a terrible heat conductor), and that they are left in rooms with little air movement?

Can anyone make a rough estimate as to how detrimental the generated heat is to the available power? Afterall, don't elevated temperatures increase the internal resistance of batteries and therefore reduce the available power and subsquently the runtime? So I'm proposing that rather than leaving the light switched on and left on its own, how about putting a good CPU heatsink and fan on it to keep the temperature down during testing?

And can anyone say how detrimental is the elevated temperature to the lifetime of the LED?

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I only have one LS, a several month old LS second, and it was my first LS.

When I first received it, I thought why would I ever use the 1aa pack? After all, brighter is better, right!

After using several other "dim" lights, and likeing them (ARC AAA, infinity Ultra, Opalec Newbeam, Streamlight Clipmate) I started thinking about that 1AA pack again.

This could be my brightest "dim" light.

What do I mean by likeing a "dim" light? Well, when making a midnight trip to the kitchen, bathroom, let the dog out, etc, when you have been sleeping, and your eyes are in their "night vision" mode, that "dim" light is like a beacon from a 2 mil CP spotlight. OK, not quite, but these "dim" lights are very effective at putting out light that is very useable when your eyes are in this night vision state.

The ARC LS second, the one that I have anyway, puts out a much more useable light with the 1AA pack, but still does not have that blinding effect on your "sleepy eyes", that brighter lights would have.

Maybe someday, when Peter is sitting in his executive suite, on the 30th story of that huge manufacturing plant he will someday have, he will consider making an ARC LS specifically with a long run time and low, but solid amount of light output.

But for now, I like the direction he is taking the ARC LS.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

Better yet would be a pressure switch on or surrounding the positive battery contact that enabled a high/low output option. When you twist the head the light comes on in a dimmer, long battery life mode. When you twist another half turn or so you get full brightness.

Well, I can dream can't I.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

I have several white and colored LS's - I have only used them with a single AA NiMH - plenty bright for what I need them for - hiking and reading. So I was unhappy when Peter discontinued the single AA option. Now I have the new hybrd 400Ma which I use with two AA NiMH -wow is it bright ! I go back to use the older arcs with one or two NiMH - they just seem too dim now. So Peter made the right choice - the new LS's are gems. But there is still a need for a single AA flashlight that uses the 1Watt Luxeon.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arc-LS have 1AA configuration anymore?

UPDATE:

OK, I used my older ARC LS Second, with the 1AA pack last night for making midnight trips around the house. MAN, it was just TOO BRIGHT! It really was! (For walking around after sleeping for several hours, that is!)

Tonight I have to compare it to my Inova 5XT, to compare brightness. If a single AA light can be brighter than my Inova, that is a sweet deal. While not quite as cool looking as my Inova, Replacing 1AA battery vs replacing 2 123 3 volt lithium batteries is a no brainer.

It's kind of ironic, that a light as functional and as cool as the 1AA pack from ARC is almost overlooked, because of the greatness of the 2AA and 1, 123 pack from ARC.

If some other company just came out with a 1aa LS, it would be all the rage here on CPF.

Just to clarify, overall I prefer brighter lights. I would not be PLANNING to be out in the wilderness, armed only with my 1AA ARC LS pack! But, man, you have a light about the size and shape of an Infinity Ultra that puts out like 20+ times the light, that could EASILY be an EDC light to carry loose in your pocket with your change. And, being a single AA battery, it doesn't cost you 2-7 dollars every time you have to change the battery.

Kind of the philosophy behind the ARC AAA, vs the Photon or other keychain lights. Those Lithium cells get expensive to replace, whereas a single AAA is very inexpensive.

AND, I bet that if you made a Luxeon Star light spicifically for the 1AA battery, it would not need to be as bulky, because the need for a heat sink would not be as great.

I also find it ironic that I am writing this, because, when I first received my ARC LS Second, I almost threw away my 1AA pack. "I would never use that", I reasoned. 2AA and the 123 pack is way brighter, so why use the 1AA pack?

Now to be fair, the 1, 123 pack is even smaller and brighter, and lighter than the 1AA pack, so the "coolness" factor has to go to the 1, 123 pack, so ARC has, "smaller and brighter" already covered!

But for people using a light a whole lot, where cost becomes a factor, or where where just in general, cost is an issue, or for people not wanting an ultra bright light (and there are times when situations call for a less bright light), I could see the need for a 1AA Luxeon Star light!