Pocket Thrower with Clip?

Does anybody make a small head (less than an inch in diameter including bezel thickness) deep reflector XP-E2 thrower?

Must have pocket clip.

I prefer 2 x CR123A primaries format.

1.5 amp or less maxx current. Surefires are all too big and I prefer a reflector as a rule.

Need 15000+ cd. Prefer neutral but cool white ok.

Would consider XP-G2 or XP-L HI if it meets my size and maximum amps criteria. I like the size of the zebralight sc62w but a little longer is ok. Nothing fat like new Surefire e series. Also no pointy crenualtions.

Must have a way to start in highest mode.

Must be sold by an American dealer but I don't care where it is built.

Price under $100.

Have a look at the Eagletac DX30LC2. Seems to fit all your requirements.

Rob

Eagletac TX25C as you have a choice of 1x or 2x CR123. It has a screw mounted clip and the "turbo" head. I bought mine from www.goinggear.com.

Did you read the part about a bezel less than an inch in diameter? I'm talking the width of an sc62 or a quark.

Scourie said:

Have a look at the Eagletac DX30LC2. Seems to fit all your requirements.

Rob

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It is the perfect form factor but 5 amps (xpl model) from 2 x CR123A? I do not even want to draw 3 amps from such a small flashlight. With 2 x CR123A in series it really shouldn't draw more than 1.5 amps for safety sake. That is why I think XP-E2 would be a better led for decent throw yet safe current level for 2 x CR123A. XP-G2 might also be able to do it at safe current.

Thanks for your suggestions though. I wonder if they make a DX30LC2 with XP-G2 or XP-E2?

recDNA said:

With 2 x CR123A in series it really shouldn't draw more than 1.5 amps for safety sake.

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I'm just dumb enough that I believe what a battery manufacturer writes on a datasheet. Silly me!

All the datasheets I have seen say that 1.5 amps is the maximum continuous discharge current for CR123A. Maximum pulse current is 3.0 to 3.5 amps. Sanyo defines a pulse current as the current that causes battery voltage to sag to 1.0v in a mere 15 seconds.

recDNA said:

It is the perfect form factor but 5 amps (xpl model) from 2 x CR123A? I do not even want to draw 3 amps from such a small flashlight. With 2 x CR123A in series it really shouldn't draw more than 1.5 amps for safety sake. That is why I think XP-E2 would be a better led for decent throw yet safe current level for 2 x CR123A. XP-G2 might also be able to do it at safe current.

Thanks for your suggestions though. I wonder if they make a DX30LC2 with XP-G2 or XP-E2?

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I can't see where it states 5A from CR123's. There is a generic warning about 5A 18650's though. I'm confident that the draw from CR123'S would be in the 1.5A region. Runtimes given would appear to be correct for the lower current draw.

Rob

Scourie said:

I'm confident that the draw from CR123'S would be in the 1.5A region.

Rob

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Rob, have you had a chance to measure current draw from 2xCR123A at 1000+ lumens? I think we are at the point where we need to start collecting some data on this.

According the Technical Specifications at Eagletac, the Eagtac DX30LC2 XP-L HI outputs 1160 lumens in turbo mode, with a step-down to 980 after 200 seconds. "Upgrading" to an XM-L2 or XP-G emitter might change lumen levels, but current demands would probably remain in the same ballpark.

[Edit: Rob reminded me below that Eagletac still posts LED lumens. The ANSI FL 1 lumens for this light's turbo mode are 905 dropping to 790 after 200s.]

Today, CPF member selfbuilt surmised that most 1000-lumen flashlights will pull more than 1.5A in a 2xCR123A configuration.

KeepingItLight said:

At 1000 lumens, do you think the turbo modes of these flashlights are pulling more current than CR123A batteries are rated for?

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selfbuilt said:

That's probably a safe statement for all 2xCR123A lights that put out ~1000 lumens.

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Selfbuilt has found that the PTC trips in many of his runtime tests with CR123A batteries. Most recently, this occurred during testing of the Nitecore MH20:

selfbuilt said:

Yes, I find it a source of concern to see PTC features kick-in on CR123A cells. I have certainly seen a lot of this over the years in testing (especially common on 4xCR123A lights). Examining the cells, you can sometimes see clear evidence of damage in the wrappers around the PTC. Invariably, the worse-affected cell is the one closest to the head (where most of the heat is concentrated).

It's fundamentally a problem of how heavily-driven lights are now on max, in general (i.e., not specific to Nitecore - or Olight, or ThruNite, etc, etc.). Multi-cell CR123A setups often don't seem suitable for sustained runtimes at max levels - even in lights with thermal regulation (which is designed to protect the circuit, not the battery). But of course, that's based again on made-in-the-USA CR123A calibration levels for PTCs. With made-in-China cells, you would probably almost never see that runtime pattern.

Ultimately, I would encourage people to use care when considering multi-cell CR123A use on any highly-driven light.

[Emphasis added]

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CPF member subwoofer recently expressed his own concerns:

subwoofer said:

The bottom line is that CR123s are not suitable for the current crop of small, high output lights. In my opinion, the maximum output you can run continuously on 2xCR123 is around 700lm. Beyond that you are asking too much of primary cells and need to move to more specialised cells designed to deliver high current.

I too have experienced CR123s on the edge and had lights where the main source of heat was the body not the head (due to the cells getting very hot). For this reason my preferred testing pattern is to use li-ion for extended runtimes and CR123s only where specifically required to show certain traits. In fact for certain high power lights that can run on CR123, I simply won't use CR123 for my own safety.

For me, CR123's place is in high reliability and standby situations where extreme output is not required.

[Emphasis added.]

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Subwoofer wholeheartedly endorsed my notion that modern LED flashlights can be too powerful for CR123A.

KeepingItLight said:

We may be at the point where LED flashlights have outgrown this battery.

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subwoofer said:

We are already, and have been for a couple of years. CR123 still has a place, but in the right lights and the right situations.

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Recently I measured amps in sc32w and found H1 at 2.2-2.4 amps with primary. I contacted the manufacturer and was told that is correct and they believe it to be safe. I see no reason to believe Eagletac is pulling less unless I read about a special circuit that recognizes and drops current with primaries. I could switch to 18660 (although I prefer primaries) but no way do I want to run 5 amps in a little light - not even for short bursts.

I would write to ask but the 5 amp warning scares the heck out of me so this light is just not my cup of tea.

Eventually a review will come out with current measurements and then I can make an informed decision.

For the sake of simplicity in the meanwhile let me add another requirement. The small light I am looking for should draw no more than 1.5 amps. I'm more interested in a bb gun than a 50 cal.

Thanks for great suggestions and participation. I should have made it more clear that I don't want huge current draw.

Although it is too big for me the new t25c2 with xpl hi drew my attention with claims of 33k lux but this light must also have huge current draw. I'm very conservative about how much stress I want to put on batteries and how much heat I want to deal with. It's way too big for my pocket anyway.

I understand your concerns and as a matter of personal interest I'll see if I can get some measurements done tomorrow on a comparable pair of flashlights.. As a sidenote, the OTF lumens on this Eagletac are not overly excessive, 905 dropping to 790 after 200s.

recDNA said:

Recently I measured amps in sc32w and found H1 at 2.2-2.4 amps with primary. I contacted the manufacturer and was told that is correct and they believe it to be safe.

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There is a difference, of course, between what is safe and what is good for a battery.

That said, a flashlight manufacturer is definitely going out on a limb when it designs a flashlight that deliberately exceeds the recommendations of its battery maker. In a liability case, I would not want to be a flashlight manufacturer explaining to a jury that I know better what is good for a battery than the battery's designer and manufacturer does.

I have learned quite a bit in reading your posts from the past several years. You are the one who first alerted me to the high current demands being placed on CR123A. I have been reading flashlight reviews assiduously since last May, and did not come upon the issue until I saw your questions about the Zebralight SC32w.

As it is now likely that turbo modes are exceeding the maximum continuous discharge currents for CR123A, I would like to see current measurements for those cells routinely included in reviews of flashlights that use them.

Scourie said:

I understand your concerns and as a matter of personal interest I'll see if I can get some measurements done tomorrow on a comparable pair of flashlights.. As a sidenote, the OTF lumens on this Eagletac are not overly excessive, 905 dropping to 790 after 200s.

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I have this exact light enroute, for Pocket carry. Can't wait. Looks like it's a nice thrower for the size.

Scourie said:

I understand your concerns and as a matter of personal interest I'll see if I can get some measurements done tomorrow on a comparable pair of flashlights. As a sidenote, the OTF lumens on this Eagletac are not overly excessive, 905 dropping to 790 after 200s.

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Yeah, I forgot that Eagletac still posts LED lumens before admitting to lower ANSI FL 1 lumems afterwards.

Thanks for the measurements!

KeepingItLight said:

Yeah, I forgot that Eagletac still posts LED lumens before admitting to lower ANSI FL 1 lumems afterwards.

Thanks for the measurements!

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So what I would really need is center lux of the lower drop down output. Bottom line is I have no use for a 5 amp pocket flashlight. Many people do. Not knocking the genre. Just not for me. My old xre-r2 t25c2 gets over 15000 lux so I know it is possible. The think the xp-e2 is a little more efficient than the xre-r2. Granted the t25c2 is too big for a pocket light or I would simply carry that.

Tested some lights and have a conclusion; it all depends on the driver circuit.

Of the 4 lights I checked only one, an older Olight S20 had the same output on both battery types. For the same ceiling bounce lux it had 1.4A on 18650 and 1.0A on CR123's. The other 3 lights had more output on CR123's than 18650 and currents were excessive for our purposes.

Would like to see a review of this new Eagletac to ascertain how efficient the driver really is.

Rob

Also whether extra voltage is just burned off as heat. If they had a special circuit to recognize 2 x CR123A and diminish current they would brag about it in specs and show different output from primaries than 18660 on ANSI chart imo.

I expected more XP-E2 or XP-G2 suggestions. Apparently small 2 x CR123A small head throwers are an outdated genre. I will never understand why surefire failed to update the lx2.

recDNA said:

I expected more XP-E2 or XP-G2 suggestions. Apparently small 2 x CR123A small head throwers are an outdated genre. I will never understand why surefire failed to update the lx2.

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This sounds right.

It occurred to me that a Chinese knock off that uses non-Cree emitters such as those made by LatticeBright might fit the bill. I don't have a clue if that true. Neither do I know where to begin looking for such a light.

A call to a modder is probably your best solution.

Thanks but what I have in mind is a small led, small head, deep reflector, 2 x CR123A flashlight. You can't just mod a Quark or something. Building such a light from scratch is way beyond my financial means. The answer most modders resort to these days is driving more and more current through existing lights to get more output. I don't even trust the amps pulled from stock lights in many cases. I like output as much as the next guy but I like pull around 1.5 amps. I will go higher in multiple Eneloop designs. Safe chemistry and they can handle high amp draw. Makes them too big for the pocket though. My current edc is sc62w but I am trying to get away from li ion and it has no throw at all.

Xfire lights from Shangri La Surprise Online are often neither safe nor dependable nor what they claim to be in ads. It's also too difficult to return them. That's why I stick to American dealers.

I tend to agree.

The only reason I mentioned Chinese knock-offs is because most of them will not deliver the high lumens they promise! Those lights might not last, but they probably won't draw too much current while they do work.

Oh I have seen some that draw way too much. It's hit or miss. Sounds like nobody makes xp-e2 lights anymore? Weird.