Blinding yourself thru reflections from white walls??

Blinding yourself thru reflection from white walls when using a powerful light!!!

This admonition have been throw at me when I advocate the use of powerful lights (ex: Surefire M-4 & M-6) for clearing a house by Police Officers.

In the circles I move about (Police, Swat Team, etc) it seems to be believed as thru that it will happen if you use too much light!!

However, it doesn't happen to me and I don't have a clue what they are talking about!!

I am a flashaholic that is comparing lights all the time by bouncing them from a white ceiling and I have never experience this "blinding myself"

Just last night I was comparing the output of a MAG 85 a Surefire M-6 and the Polaris by bouncing the lights from a white ceiling 5 feet from my eyes.

So if this doesn't happen to my pretty blue eyes, why other people talk about this??

This is the type of comment that I get from supposedly "experts";

Handguns are for close range use. If I'm using a light with my handgun, I'm probably indoors. How much flash back are you going to get from a several hundred lumen light shining into a white colored wall 10 feet away from you? Now you're blinded. More is not always better. For me, a basic 60 lumen light is plenty for indoor use.
[quote/]

Now, I even tried it last night, I doused all the light and standing 10 feet from a white wall and pushing a stainless steel pistol in front of me, I hit the wall with a two million candlepower from my LSI Night tracker spotlight!!

I was not blinded at all and I could see plenty all around due to the light spreading about.

So if this one of those myths or is me that I am immune to reflections from white walls??

Want your input guys!!
Regards
Juancho

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Hey they are full of it, I justed fired up my Costco HID 4 feet from the wall :rock: . Its bright, but I wouldnt say it was blinding. Maybe if you did it for like 4 hours or something.

I would be willing to say that most people on here shine their lights at the wall just as much as they use them outside or anywhere else. Its a good way to test beam quality, or admire it!!

Thats just part of flashaholism, maybe the first sign of it.

-PSM

"I was not blinded at all and I could see plenty all around due to the light spreading about."

Yeah, but you're not going to see, because your dark adaptation will be gone, the guy in dark clothing in the dark hallway to your left who is just about to blow your head off

Think about realistic tactical situations rather than about "blinding" in the medical sense of the word.

Back when I was thinking about police worck I took a "unacredeted" traing class and the instruter stated "you dont want so much light that they cant see you gun" I like the FBI school of thought of keep the light far away from you kus thats what there going to shoot at. ALSO they cant take your gun or walk/think/shoot extra if they cant SEE. so ya more light=good

HWilliam said:

"I was not blinded at all and I could see plenty all around due to the light spreading about."

Yeah, but you're not going to see, because your dark adaptation will be gone, the guy in dark clothing in the dark hallway to your left who is just about to blow your head off

Think about realistic tactical situations rather than about "blinding" in the medical sense of the word.

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What the heck I need "dark adaptation" for if I have a light that have turned the dark corner and the entire house into FULL DAY!!!

juancho said:

What the heck I need "dark adaptation" for if I have a light that have turned the dark corner and the entire house into FULL DAY!!!

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Try it and get back to us. Set up a situation where you're looking at the super-brightly lit wall but have a dark corridor to the left or right. The eye has a great dynamic range but it's not anywhere near instantaneous in its response.

IMO, super-bright in a house-clearing operation makes as much sense as those space-helmets in the SF movies with the lights on the inside lighting up the intrepid hero's face as he or she tries to find the alien in the dark.

juancho said:

What the heck I need "dark adaptation" for if I have a light that have turned the dark corner and the entire house into FULL DAY!!!

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And while your eyes are trying adapt to shifting from being outside in semi-dark conditions to blinding brightness and the reflection from the walls, the guy you warned you were coming by lighting up the hallway with that daylight-level illumination comes out and pops a few into you. Unfortunately, your eyesight is too busy trying to shift to 'daytime' mode (contracting iris, brain adjusting inputs) to let you really notice that moving spot of darkness, much less focus on it fast enough to do anything.

Where lights like the M6 really shine are when you have to illuminate a wide area, or if you're going for a 'tactical' advantage by turning it on in their faces when you know where they are. What would have happened to you in the above situation happens to them instead, giving you the extra few moments you may need to disable the perp.

Haesslich said:

And while your eyes are trying adapt to shifting from being outside in semi-dark conditions to blinding brightness and the reflection from the walls, the guy you warned you were coming by lighting up the hallway with that daylight-level illumination comes out and pops a few into you. Unfortunately, your eyesight is too busy trying to shift to 'daytime' mode (contracting iris, brain adjusting inputs) to let you really notice that moving spot of darkness, much less focus on it fast enough to do anything.

Where lights like the M6 really shine are when you have to illuminate a wide area, or if you're going for a 'tactical' advantage by turning it on in their faces when you know where they are. What would have happened to you in the above situation happens to them instead, giving you the extra few moments you may need to disable the perp.

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It is funny, you keep talking about blinding reflection from the walls, AND I DON'T EXPERIENCE ANY.
Besides, you PAINT YOUR OWN SCENARY OF ME LOOKING FOR THE BAD GUY, WHO SAY I AM LOOKING FOR HIM INSTEAD OF WAITTING FOR HIM???

Stop using your imagination and give hard facts, put yourself in front of a white wall and try to blind yourself.

And don't talk to me about "tactical" situations, I was doing "tacticals" when most of you were in Pampers!!!

If that "blinding" were thru most of us HOT WIRES GUYS most be walking with the aid of a dog.

Calm down guys!!!

juancho said:

It is funny, you keep talking about blinding reflection from the walls, AND I DON'T EXPERIENCE ANY.
Besides, you PAINT YOUR OWN SCENARY OF ME LOOKING FOR THE BAD GUY, WHO SAY I AM LOOKING FOR HIM INSTEAD OF WAITTING FOR HIM???

Stop using your imagination and give hard facts, put yourself in front of a white wall and try to blind yourself.

And don't talk to me about "tactical" situations, I was doing "tacticals" when most of you were in Pampers!!!

If that "blinding" were thru most of us HOT WIRES GUYS most be walking with the aid of a dog.

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Roy: I -am- calm, and I do intend to try what Juancho suggests when my Polaris shows up. I have had similar problems when going from dark conditions to fairly well lit ones - the eyes do take a second or two to adjust, which means that my visual acuity and awareness suffers for some moments. In normal daylight conditions, I don't notice this for the most part - ambient lighting is sufficiently bright that my eyesight isn't affected by shining a bright light at a white wall; yes, it can shine back a bit, but my eyes are already 'daylight adapted', which means I haven't noticed problems.

At night, though, where I'm not dealing with a lot of streetlights, I've noticed that reflected light can be a bit more of a handicap - it's not like the flaring one notices with NVGs when a light is shone in their direction, but it can be enough to 'dazzle' for a moment, even when I'm expecting a light to bounce back. Depending on the intensity of it, the adjustment period can be anywhere from near-instantaneous to about 1.5 seconds. Juancho could be an anomaly, to judge by the way his instructors' comments reflect my own experiences with lighting things after dark. All I know is that it isn't an instant adjustment, and that dazzle from high-lumen lights can mean a second or three that one is busy trying to process what they're seeing.

For an example of this phenomenon that everyone might be able to do (and have access to the right lighting tools), I'd suggest parking a car about 15-20 feet from a white wall and flashing the highbeams several times after having the headlights darkened for about a minute in a dark area. Yes, it'll let you see someone there and definitely dazzle them... but I would also suspect that the viewer who did the flashing may themselves be a little dazzled.

juancho said:

1st post : This admonition have been throw at me when I advocate the use of powerful lights (ex: Surefire M-4 & M-6) for clearing a house by Police Officers.

Besides, you PAINT YOUR OWN SCENARY OF ME LOOKING FOR THE BAD GUY, WHO SAY I AM LOOKING FOR HIM INSTEAD OF WAITTING FOR HIM???

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Haha.. I didn't know police officers 'clear a house' by *waiting* in a corner with an ultra-bright flashlight in hand.

I think most people meant 'blind' as in losing your dark-adapted eyes, and not blind while the light is on.

For example, if your light gets shot at (which most probably might happen since its an easy target), you're gonna have a problem if you just looked at a white wall with 1000 lumens shining off it, as opposed to using a 60 lumen, 'flood' type light which will let you adjust more quickly and identify your attackers' positions sooner.

I didn't know police officers 'clear a house' by *waiting* in a corner with an ultra-bright flashlight in hand.

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I thought the proper technique involved a very large Havahart trap and a setting of milk and cookies.

I think most people meant 'blind' as in losing your dark-adapted eyes, and not blind while the light is on.

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Or exceeding the contrast range of your eyes when the light is on. It's easy enough to demonstrate and people see it all the time in sunlight and an approaching tunnel while driving. A high-power flashlight on a nearby wall with a dark hallway off to the side is no different, the laws of physiology can't be violated.

Interesting subject...

You can discuss this with experts who train advanced light tactics to officers. There is a discussion board with instructors at Strategos International.

http://strategosforum.com/phpBBx/index.php

Jeff

This is a huge, complex topic with lots of false info from various "experts." Ken Good and Strategos has a ton of good info.
http://strategosforum.com/phpBBx/index.php

and

http://www.strategosinternational.com/reading.html and click on "Visual Distortion - Clarity or Chaos" - Sept 2005 SWAT Mag Feature Article.

--dan

wouldnt it depend on the wall
most times hitting a matte white finish, just lights up eveything. but there are also satin, semigloss, and gloss finishes, then also textured, and non textured surfaces.
head into the bathrooms (where you find more gloss finishes) and the mirror is still going to be the killer.