Chances are, it's probably like winning the lottery. But someone's got to win and someone always wins!
Battery explosion with Fenix P1D
- Thread starter SoSa
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Chances are, it's probably like winning the lottery. But someone's got to win and someone always wins!
Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion
Titanium? ... assuming you are talking about Energizer Titanium batteries are pumped up versions of alkalines and are not lithiums.
Titanium? ... assuming you are talking about Energizer Titanium batteries are pumped up versions of alkalines and are not lithiums.
LED61
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion
Hi Tom
Do you think brand name cells like Duracell will have its protection circuit defend us from an internal short ?
Hi Tom
Do you think brand name cells like Duracell will have its protection circuit defend us from an internal short ?
GarageBoy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion
The vent IS the safety
The vent IS the safety
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion
Hello Alberto,
I believe the PTC is supposed to protect against this type of event. EDIT: I am off base here. MorePower pointed out in a response below that the PTC protects against external shorts. It does not help with internal shorts or thermal runaway. See post #72. ENDEDIT:
I am not sure if the brand that failed uses a PTC device, but all of the name brand cells do as well as some of the others. The Titanium cells originally did not have a PTC with the first batches that were sold, but they were added on subsequent batches. I believe all the BatteryStation cells are also PTC protected.
The PTC does add additional cost to the cell, so those who are looking for only the cheapest price may be at additional risk.
Tom
Hello Alberto,
I believe the PTC is supposed to protect against this type of event. EDIT: I am off base here. MorePower pointed out in a response below that the PTC protects against external shorts. It does not help with internal shorts or thermal runaway. See post #72. ENDEDIT:
I am not sure if the brand that failed uses a PTC device, but all of the name brand cells do as well as some of the others. The Titanium cells originally did not have a PTC with the first batches that were sold, but they were added on subsequent batches. I believe all the BatteryStation cells are also PTC protected.
The PTC does add additional cost to the cell, so those who are looking for only the cheapest price may be at additional risk.
Tom
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How curious.
I suppose (like others) that extraordinarily poorly-constructed batteries could suffer from internal shorting when thermal expansion causes parts of the battery that ought not contact to contact...which would explain why the light would have stayed on for a period of time, but only blew when left standing.
I think this one can be alleviated completely by staying away from, again as others have said, poor-quality batteries. I don't have any apprehension about using my Energizer/Duracell/Batterystation/etc. lithium batteries after this, my own self. This was, as far as we're aware, an isolated incident using a very poor-quality cell. No reason to be worried about a widespread problem or freak out.
I suppose (like others) that extraordinarily poorly-constructed batteries could suffer from internal shorting when thermal expansion causes parts of the battery that ought not contact to contact...which would explain why the light would have stayed on for a period of time, but only blew when left standing.
I think this one can be alleviated completely by staying away from, again as others have said, poor-quality batteries. I don't have any apprehension about using my Energizer/Duracell/Batterystation/etc. lithium batteries after this, my own self. This was, as far as we're aware, an isolated incident using a very poor-quality cell. No reason to be worried about a widespread problem or freak out.
As far as I am aware, primary lithium cells (non-rechargeable) from a quality manufacturer have the best track record, but always best to stop when you first notice ANY dimming of bulb. Once you get into rechargeable LiPo/Li-Ion, your risk level goes up....and it is best to buy protected batteries that open the battery circuit if voltage gets too low (or too high with charging), or too hot.
Even with this incident which can be likely blamed on going for the cheapest version where that company has poor supervision/quality control guidelines, most of the lithium cell problems are from charging.
One exception to that is the recalled laptop Lithium cell packs that started fires from some combination of poor pack/cell design, poorly insulated and structurally protected batteries from adjacent structures, lack of cell balancing, etc.
I personally would not be scared or panicked about using a QUALITY name cell as long as you are able to drop a light and move away from it for safety. Remember most cell phone and laptop batteries on airplanes are lithium...so this sort of thing is much less likely to happen unless you try to buy the cheapest crap cells around.
Even with this incident which can be likely blamed on going for the cheapest version where that company has poor supervision/quality control guidelines, most of the lithium cell problems are from charging.
One exception to that is the recalled laptop Lithium cell packs that started fires from some combination of poor pack/cell design, poorly insulated and structurally protected batteries from adjacent structures, lack of cell balancing, etc.
I personally would not be scared or panicked about using a QUALITY name cell as long as you are able to drop a light and move away from it for safety. Remember most cell phone and laptop batteries on airplanes are lithium...so this sort of thing is much less likely to happen unless you try to buy the cheapest crap cells around.
Illum
Flashaholic
Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion
lets hope its just a crappy cell
something tells me our previously established conclusion of cells consisting of different remaining capacities reverse-charging each other is only a partial conclusion
oo:
only with batteries, when you win, you lose
I think hes referring to Titanium brand lithium cells
see here: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/titanium_123a.htm
lets hope its just a crappy cell
something tells me our previously established conclusion of cells consisting of different remaining capacities reverse-charging each other is only a partial conclusion
oo:only with batteries, when you win, you lose
I think hes referring to Titanium brand lithium cells
see here: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/titanium_123a.htm
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KingGlamis
Banned
I'm a relative newbie. Can you explain the difference between protected and unprotected cells? I have RCR123As with the name Powerizer on them. Doesn't say where they were MFG-ed. But they do have a plastic "wrap" on them and what appears to be two vent holes on the positive end. Are these protected cells?
Bullzeyebill
Flashaholic
I think this is an isolated incident. In our CPF community we have seen few incidences of CR123 failure. It has occurred, and we have taken note.
That said, I have been using RCR123 batteries that have established a track record in high drain applications. Surefire, Streamlight, and Duracell, to name a few, appear to be better suited to our flashlight purposes. Remember, CR123's got their start as camera batteries, running flash, on and off in in fractions of a second. We require more of our CR123's and I think we should be very selective brand wise. Study Silver Fox's work up on CR123's in the sticky at the electronics, battery, etc. forum.
Bill
That said, I have been using RCR123 batteries that have established a track record in high drain applications. Surefire, Streamlight, and Duracell, to name a few, appear to be better suited to our flashlight purposes. Remember, CR123's got their start as camera batteries, running flash, on and off in in fractions of a second. We require more of our CR123's and I think we should be very selective brand wise. Study Silver Fox's work up on CR123's in the sticky at the electronics, battery, etc. forum.
Bill
LED_Thrift
Flashlight Enthusiast
Protected cells have a circuit in them that shuts the current off when the voltage of the cell gets low. Draining a lithium rechargable battery too low and then recharging it can sometimes create a dangerous condition. The protection circuit prevents the cell from being discharged too low. The downsides are: a slight increase in cost, a loss of capacity [my guess ~ 25%], and the fact that your light will go out with little or no warning. In some lights I can see the light getting a little dimmer and so I know the batteries will stop soon, in others it is very hard to tell.
Kentuckian
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 117
SoSa, glad you're alright.
Does anyone know if these are good batteries http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=241
I'm a noob anddon't know anything yet!:shakehead
Does anyone know if these are good batteries http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=241
I'm a noob anddon't know anything yet!:shakehead
Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion
Is the PTC a true circuit on non rechargeable cells ???
Or is it just the name for a vent ???
I had some Colston brand CR123A's that when getting low make my Fenix drop to low.
Is the PTC a true circuit on non rechargeable cells ???
Or is it just the name for a vent ???
I had some Colston brand CR123A's that when getting low make my Fenix drop to low.
It's a very good and important question. When we say "Protected" we mean a separate computer chip that is added and gives a cutoff (breaks the circuit in the battery from completing) if the voltage goes too low, the voltage goes too high, the current amperate goes too high, and the cell temperature rises too high.
I sacrificed one of my AW 14670 cells to show you exactly what this means. Click on the thumbnail images below. AW starts with a normal UNprotected cell in blue plastic which he also sells. These have the vent holes which help release pressure if the temperature rises, and gas expands. That means the starting blue, unprotected cell just has high temp venting protection (as far as I know).
Now note there is a thin computer chip on the bottom under a metal disc. One end is welded to the bottom (Negative Terminal) of the blue battery, and the other end uses a thin contact strip to run along the side and attach on the top Positive terminal.
It is this computer chip that does all the important sensing and interruption of the circuit, otherwise the blue cell is an unprotected cell. The additional black shrink wrap and label are added to keep the components anchored and insulated. You can feel and see the space at the bottom of the bottom of a protected AW battery where the PTC circuit is locate4d.
If the ones you are buying for other lights, such as R123 do not specify that they have this kind of protection, and especially if you don't see the circuit gap and feel the thin strip along the side, then it's pretty safe to assume you are not using protected Lithium cells. I hope this illustrates more clearly what a "Protected" battery actually means.
Finally, if I remove the blue wrapper you see the metal canister with the plastic circle on top that separates the Negative entire outside and the inner, middle top positive end. It is a shiny, stainless steel casing, it just photographed a darker color.
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The protection circuit is added to (some) rechargeable cells.
AFAIK, the primaries like the one that was reported to explode in this thread typically do not have an active circuit like this.
They should have a PTC, though. That stands for "Positive Temperature Coefficient"; it's simply a resistor that has higher resistance at higher temperature. It's there to limit the current when the battery is hot, since Lithium batteries are prone to thermal runaway: Hot batteries can produce a lot of current which makes them even hotter -- positive feedback without the PTC. Also, if the temp gets too high, the chemical inside break up, with nasty results (see the thread start). For instance, they release an oxidizer, which means that if they're on fire they can burn even without oxygen.
AFAIK, the primaries like the one that was reported to explode in this thread typically do not have an active circuit like this.
They should have a PTC, though. That stands for "Positive Temperature Coefficient"; it's simply a resistor that has higher resistance at higher temperature. It's there to limit the current when the battery is hot, since Lithium batteries are prone to thermal runaway: Hot batteries can produce a lot of current which makes them even hotter -- positive feedback without the PTC. Also, if the temp gets too high, the chemical inside break up, with nasty results (see the thread start). For instance, they release an oxidizer, which means that if they're on fire they can burn even without oxygen.
DM51
Flashaholic
Good unprotected cells have PTC thermal protection - not the same thing as the low voltage / overcharge protection circuit.
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Art Vandelay
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2006
- Messages
- 1,550
Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion
I don't think they make rechargeable CR123s. Charging a non rechargeable could cause an explosion like that.
