Oh this is gonna be like a wet blanket at a bonfire hatred rally. Ya gotta love reality vs. hype.
Ya gotta love reality vs. hype.
So here's the choice we face. Yell "FIRE!" in a burning building and create a panic, or sit quietly, hope nobody notices, and when your hair bursts into flames, try to keep the screaming to a minimum. It disturbs the neighbors.
This is why I've become a Political Atheist. Republican or Democrat, nobody is crying foul about the shameless way the numbers are being juggled and more importantly, nobody is willing to even discuss doing anything meaningful to fix the economy.
We all agree politicians are crooks, but there isn't much alternative. QUOTE]
The alternative, especially with teh vast amount of information availoable today is an informed electorate.
"Vote for Smith", "Yes on 3", "No on Measuer D" *will* in all but the most extreme conditions get Smith elected, 3 passed and D failed if there are more of those than "Vote for Jones", etc.
We raised our taxes here with a bunch of "Yes on Measure D" signs posted around. There was no organized opposition.
One of the first anti-smoking laws was heading towards a win when the cigarette company launched ads with black women talking about loosing their frreedom and the catch phrase "Read the small print". It lost even though there was no small print and the ads never once mentioned what the law said.
It matters not if your pockets are lined with gold, bulging with the hardest of currencies, or stuffed with a fiat of paper feathers.
Political Atheist...that's a colorful cliche which I have heard before, but it is inherently bankrupt without a working flux capacitor. Whether we like it or not, we live in the current reality. You have a right to strenously object to the fiat maelstrom, but in the end you will be flattened with the rest of us lemmings.
Unless you are sitting near the back door, there is also a very good reason not to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theatre whereupon a pyrotechnical conflagration is lacking. Ultimately, everything in life is a house of cards. It matters not if your pockets are lined with gold, bulging with the hardest of currencies, or stuffed with a fiat of paper feathers. When your time here is done, you are returned to the dust from whence you came.
The thread was started to bring reality to the manipulative certainty of the current recessionary "FIRE" that has been trumpeted irresponsibly. All those ignoble sources with their wistful proclamations should now be seen for the specious charlatans they truly are. Pesky things, those facts can be.
A growing number of economists believe the economy is in a recession and is indeed contracting now.
JS, it should be VERY CLEAR that no one in particular was singled out in my post, so I'm not sure why again you felt the need to move it into a personal matter....but it is quite distasteful. Yes there is intense and repeated trashing and hatred of President Bush and conservative viewpoints in these Cafe forums, and little tolerance for anyone who has opposing viewpoints. In any case, I started this thread to report the FACTS.
The fact of how a recession is defined is independent of anyone's opinion or suspicion, including economists quoted in my link which of course I read. It simply requires two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Period.
There have now been 6 1/2 YEARS of consecutive positive growth quarters. Last two quarters grew at 0.6%. (Emphasis on "grew")
Once again with such vitriolic responses PERSONALLY directed at me with no justification, and your status as a moderator, I can only withdraw and not post further in this thread. Congratulations again.
The thread was started to bring reality to the manipulative certainty of the current recessionary "FIRE" that has been trumpeted irresponsibly. All those ignoble sources with their wistful proclamations should now be seen for the specious charlatans they truly are. Pesky things, those facts can be.
I'm no economist, so I had to read the posts over a couple of times to understand what's going on here. Also, the big words threw me off.
I believe Lux originally wanted to say "Told you so" to everyone who kept on saying the "R" word when the economy is in fact by definition, not in a recession. In many ways I agree that the media in particular has thrown the word around a little too much. In a way, they (the media), scared consumer confidence down the drain.
JS's retort is basically saying, screw technicalities, our dollar is junk and getting junkier. Basically, you don't need the "R" word to experience the same effects. I see this viewpoint also. The weakening dollar and inflation go hand in hand with recession as far as I am concerned. As far as I know, if we have negative growth, then our dollar will be/get weaker.
The numbers could have gone either way. In reality, what we experience as consumers would not have changed had the report showed a -0.6% instead of a +0.6%. Gas still costs around $4, food is more expensive, and companies are going out of business. In a way, I don't see how it is important for me to KNOW about .06% growth anyway other than for trivial knowledge. Doesn't change a thing.
*edit to add: Guys I know it's easy to get feathers ruffled as you call it, but this is just argument like in college. You can argue just the facts, but your argument would lack personality without your rhetoric. Lux was using colorful language and expression. JS I completely understand you point of view also, but I wouldn't be offended by his rhetoric and choice of words. I loved college because we can argue all day, but we don't get angry at each other. I think the same should hold true here. We're adults.
PhantomPhoton said:. . .
Something is just not right. When the Fed continues to print more and more money whenever we ask for it, but that money is not backed by gold, or silver, etc but instead propped up on credit; when the government has to continue borrowing from China; and when other countries have started refusing to lend us more money; -- There is a problem, and someone is trying really really hard to cover it up. Continuing to spin and trumpet any little, indefinite tidbit to those who don't pay attention they hope to put off the problems as long as they can.
LOL!! Buster, may I use that as my new sigline??? I could not agree more with your entire post.
Lux Luthor said:Political Atheist...that's a colorful cliche which I have heard before, but it is inherently bankrupt without a working flux capacitor. .
Whether we like it or not, we live in the current reality. You have a right to strenously object to the fiat maelstrom, but in the end you will be flattened with the rest of us lemmings.
LuxLuthor said:The fact of how a recession is defined is independent of anyone's opinion or suspicion, including economists quoted in my link which of course I read. It simply requires two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Period.
There have now been 6 1/2 YEARS of consecutive positive growth quarters. Last two quarters grew at 0.6%. (Emphasis on "grew")
Good post, supernam. For the record, I wasn't offended with Lux's rhetoric or choice of words--but I was ruffled and uppity and ready to argue it with verve and vivacity. Something so fundamental as the value of our currency and inflation must be taken into account when stating "facts". And acting as if this link was like a wet blanket on a bon fire was(is) to my mind, ridiculous. So far so good.
Enter Lux's parentally disapproving post disciplining a potty mouthed child. Now I'm angry. Lux doesn't get to talk to me that way. If he can dish it out, he needs to be able to take it. You wouldn't, for example, walk into a Boston pub and say that a certain popular sports team sucks and then get all indignant when you got some energetic responses.
I don't accept Lux's take on my actions and my post. I don't accept Lux's criticism of me. I don't grant Lux the moral high ground.
I'm happy to debate and argue, but there's got to be some measure and give and take to it. It can't be that the least little thing makes someone storm off in a huff.
Anyway, back on topic, I think that the "R" word probably does get bandied about by the press too much. But at the same time, they really haven't made it at all clear what our current situation really is.
And I think people deserve the truth; deserve to understand the basis of our crazy economy and money supply. I refuse to be cowed by an admonishment not to disturb the coyote walking on thin air beyond the cliff, otherwise he'll fall. Sorry, but we're way beyond that now. The coyote is going to fall, and what the fed is doing now is just making things worse for the long run.