4000+ Lumen Test & BridgeLux LED Review

bshanahan14rulz

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So thermal runaway is the only reason we use CC for LEDs? So if I had a few Cree's wired in series only, on a big beefy fan-cooled heatsink, I could use a CV driver? Neat-o!

Wish lasers were that way...

and EEF, a laptop brick is that thing you plug into the wall that charges your laptop, converts AC to DC. A Xitanium is basically a laptop brick with extra bits and pieces that make it more betterer for LEDs ;-)
 

blasterman

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I'll add that even though LEDs strictly speaking should be run on constant current

Why? Who declared that law?

Constant curent drivers have more problems than this forum will admit to given the amount of mail I've responded to. Current regulation electronics are prone to failure and Q/C issues, which might explain all the dead bucks out there.

A fixed voltage supply will also not put out more voltage than it's rated for. However, a current regulated supply will fling out it's max voltage under less than ideal conditions including transient shorts, power-ups, etc.

For instance, a solder breaks on a string of LEDs on a 700mA Current Regulated supply causing intermittent contact, and hence rapid pulses of dangerous voltage as the circuit keeps discharging. Next thing you know I'm replacing $50 worth of Crees. Never had that happen with a constant voltage supply.

When a laptop brick shorts or detects a problem, it typically shuts off for a few second. When a 700mA current regaulted driver detects a fault it delivers more power first before stopping.

Matter of fact, I've never lost a single LED due to thermal runaway on a fixed voltage circuit, but there are likely a few billion 5/10mm LEDs out there trashed on current regulated arrays (like traffic lights) due to voltage hogging in a parallel / series array.
 
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jtr1962

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Why? Who declared that law?

Constant curent drivers have more problems than this forum will admit to given the amount of mail I've responded to. Current regulation electronics are prone to failure and Q/C issues, which might explain all the dead bucks out there.

A fixed voltage supply will also not put out more voltage than it's rated for. However, a current regulated supply will fling out it's max voltage under less than ideal conditions including transient shorts, power-ups, etc.
So will a voltage regulated supply if something goes wrong. Constant voltage circuits use a feedback network ( generally a resistor divider ) to determine the output voltage. If one of those resistors goes, then the circuit may think it has zero on the output. Bingo, output keeps increasing until it reaches the input. Yes, I've seen it happen, thankfully only once.

The ideal for driving an LED is a constant current/constant voltage circuit but unfortunately few drivers do it this way. Ideally, the voltage limit is set above whatever the string of LEDs will reach under normal operation. This ensures constant current operation except if the string open circuits. If that happens, voltage rises, but not to the point where it will kill the LEDs if the open circuit somehow reconnects itself.

The problems you mention are poor design. If your constant current circuit doesn't have a voltage limit, then all the components on the output ( i.e. filter caps ) should be able to take whatever voltage the output rise to ( generally something close to the input voltage ). Sadly many don't. End result predictably is failed supplies.

I think the reason you've had a lot better luck with CV supplies might have to with numbers more than anything else. CV supplies are made in massive numbers. You can just design them better at any given price point by economies of scale. CC supplies mostly cater to the LED market, which is a niche market compared to the market for power bricks. You have a lot of one-off designs which really aren't throughly tested before coming to market.

As for why operate LEDs on constant current ( besides that the major LED manufacturers all say you should in their design guides ), the reason is to better control heat and light production. LEDs have a wide variance in forward voltage. Operate a string of 3 Crees at 10V, for example, and most of the time forward current might be 500 mA, give or take. However, if you happen to get LEDs with particularly low Vf they might well be pulling over a amp. If your heat sink is barely adequate for 500 mA then you have problems. Temperature goes up, Vf drops further, current goes up. Eventually either the power supply, or LEDs, or both, destroy themselves. With a constant current supply of 500 mA, you'll have a much smaller variation in heat output ( it would really only vary with Vf ). With constant voltage, your heat here is 10V times whatever current the LEDs happen to pull at 10V ( less light output, of course ). That could easily vary by a factor of 2 or more. With a 500 mA constant current circuit heat is 500 mA times the total forward voltage of the string ( which might vary from ~9.3V to maybe 10.5V, or only about 13% ). If you want to massively heat sink your LEDs, then constant voltage is just fine. I've done it both ways but I'm honestly more comfortable with constant current, or better yet CC/CV. The downside to CC/CV is that you're pretty much limited to a fixed number of LEDs. If you put more LEDs in then they won't be driven at full current. If you put fewer in they'll get the full current but won't be protected in the event of an open circuit/reconnect. This is why most drivers are simply CC-flexibility. Not an ideal situation, but not as problematic as you make them out to be if designed well ( most sadly aren't ).

For instance, a solder breaks on a string of LEDs on a 700mA Current Regulated supply causing intermittent contact, and hence rapid pulses of dangerous voltage as the circuit keeps discharging. Next thing you know I'm replacing $50 worth of Crees. Never had that happen with a constant voltage supply.
Are you referring to those Xitanium drivers? That shouldn't happen on a well-designed supply. I've made CC circuits where I can connect LEDs to powered drivers all day long without problems. The key is to limit the output capacitance to something reasonable so that the LED junction isn't hit with massive amounts of energy. Apparently Xitanium doesn't do that.

When a laptop brick shorts or detects a problem, it typically shuts off for a few second. When a 700mA current regaulted driver detects a fault it delivers more power first before stopping.
Shouldn't happen. When a 700 mA CC circuit is shorted, you should get 700 mA going through the short, and near zero power. Or at least that's what happens with the drivers I make.

The driver problems you or your customers experience are mostly to do with designers of CC circuits not knowing what the heck they're doing ( or being forced to do things they shouldn't to contain costs ). I've had the opportunity to examine drivers even on $200 lights. For the most part I'm shocked by what I see. Inadequate current sense resistors, inadequate MOSFETs. Inductors which operate very close to saturation even at the design current. Output caps with voltage ratings far below the input ( the best I saw was a 4V cap on the output of a 12 volt input driver-yes, it was designed to drive 1 LED, but if the output was open then the cap fried ). It's even worse with boost drivers. At least with buck drivers the output voltage is inherently limited to the input voltage less a few tenths. Boost drivers on the other hand MUST be designed with some means of limiting voltage in the event of an open circuit or they WILL destroy themselves. Sadly, a lot aren't.

There's a good reason I don't really bother with commercial drivers when I make projects. They're a crapshoot. Some are great, most aren't. Which you end up with is sadly not necessarily determined by what you pay for them.
 

jtr1962

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So thermal runaway is the only reason we use CC for LEDs? So if I had a few Cree's wired in series only, on a big beefy fan-cooled heatsink, I could use a CV driver? Neat-o!
No, we also use CC to better control heat production so we can use a fixed-size heat sink ( see last post ). And yes, you can run a few Crees on a CV driver. Just make sure you stick a resistor in somewhere unless the CV supply is within a few tenths of a volt of the total Vf of your LED string. Add up the forward voltage of all the LEDs at whatever current you intend to drive them at ( let's say 10V driven at 500 mA ). If your supply is 12V, then you need to use a (12-10)/ 0.5 = 4 ohm resistor in series with the LEDs. Wattage rating of the resistor should be at least ( 12 -10 )*0.5, or 1 watt.
 

blasterman

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Are you referring to those Xitanium drivers? That shouldn't happen on a well-designed supply.

What's the IC code for 'should'?

Also, 700mA Xitanium drivers are exactly the ones that have suffered this problem and I take a bit of offense that you seem to be denying this can happen when I've experienced first hand. All it takes is for a bit of solder to hit a ground or poorly isolated pad and you can kiss a string of Cree's goodbye. A fixed voltage supply like a laptop brick turns off because they are designed not to fry your $2,000 laptop. The current regulated supply disharges and kills emitters because it's too stupid to tell a short from a full string of LEDs and isn't designed for a specifc task in general.

Also, I'm not directly picking on Xitanium because all commercial current regulators in this class are likely built with identical components. However, frankly speaking, this commercial design effing sucks. It might be efficient, but it's not a good solution for what they are hyped for.

Shouldn't happen. When a 700 mA CC....

There's that annoying word should again. If I divide the forward voltage of three 9.7volt Bridgelux into 24volts times a should what do I need?:poke:

You are aware of the very thread in this forum confirming the problem with Buck-Sucks not delivering their rated current?

Also, there's the strange issue I've experienced with Satistronics LEDs. They run fine on fixed voltage supplies. Even at 700mA they work perfectly and I've yet to lose a single one. They run on my reef tank, over house plants...no problem. 24/7 since summer, and my camera confirms intensity hasn't dropped a bit.

However, hook a Satistronics 3watter up to a 700mA current regulated supply and 'poof', they die within hours. So, if you want to vote that the problem is entirely the design of the emitter, then we have a serious disagreement. I'm using a single surplus laptop brick to run every LED array on an entire side of my room, and I'm not close to full capacity. I'm waiting for the 'thermal runaway' that some of you keep claiming will happen. Still waiting. Still waiting......

I realize you build your own supplies, and this is perhaps why we have such a radically different perspective. However, the fact remains I've been cobbling together some fairly powerful arrays with a huge variety of LED types, and the fixed voltage approach has yielded near 100 success. Current regulated supplies make nice pretty sparks when they short.
 

jtr1962

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Also, 700mA Xitanium drivers are exactly the ones that have suffered this problem and I take a bit of offense that you seem to be denying this can happen when I've experienced first hand.
I didn't say it couldn't happen as it obviously did happen to you, merely that it shouldn't happen on a properly designed supply. Evidently the Xitanium isn't. Also, without seeing a schematic and/or having one to test I have no idea exactly what the Xitanium is doing electronically. There are more than a few ways to drive LEDs off 120 VAC. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Xitanium uses a high-frequency transformer to step-down the voltage. Basically, you first rectify and filter 120 VAC, end up with about 165 VDC, then use MOSFETs to chop this DC into a high-frequency ( several tens of kHz or more ) wave which is fed into a step down transformer. All good and well except that transformers are inductors. Inductors can store rather large amounts of energy. Moreover, disconnect an inductor from its load, and guess what happens? The current wants to continue to flow, but can't, so the voltage rises. Now reconnect the load a short time late, and POOF! That seems to be what happened with you. I'm not saying the Xitanium is a horrible design, merely that the designers didn't account for the possibility of the load being momentarily disconnected. They could probably mitigate the problem by putting a large filter cap on the output. You would still get the voltage trying to rise if the LEDs were disconnected, but the capacitor would limit the rate of rise ( technically it would absorb the energy in the inductor ).

And your typical laptop brick usually has exactly the same topology as it's the best way to step down 120 VAC BUT it has a bunch more failsafes. As it's a CV supply designed for a finicky computer it also has HUGE filter caps on the output.

Also, I'm not directly picking on Xitanium because all commercial current regulators in this class are likely built with identical components. However, frankly speaking, this commercial design effing sucks. It might be efficient, but it's not a good solution for what they are hyped for.
Let's put it this way-it's a less than optimal solution. In all honestly, want a quick and dirty but fairly good way to run LEDs off 120 VAC, here's one:

LED_Night_Light_Schematic.gif


As shown the circuit drives 24 LEDs at ~20 mA. If you want to drive, say, 6 power LEDs at 350 mA, then change C1 to 10 uF, change R1 to about a few ohms ( or even just stick in a 1 amp fuse ), and change C2 to about 4700 uF or 10000 uF. Efficiency > 90%, not bad current regulation, no surges if there is a short, very simple, inexpensive parts. Yes, the output voltage will still rise if the one of the LEDs gets disconnected, but fairly slowly due to the huge filter cap. I'm also fairly sure another cap across the AC input to the bridge will limit the rise ( I'll test it in my circuit simulator ).

You are aware of the very thread in this forum confirming the problem with Buck-Sucks not delivering their rated current?
Yep. It's a design problem in the driver. Maybe they rate their drivers by what they put into a dead short. Put a real load on it, and some drivers will deliver less current. Like I said, this is exactly why I make my own drivers. 95% of what you can buy has some glaring fault. I also realize about 95% of people here are not capable of doing what I do electronically.

Also, there's the strange issue I've experienced with Satistronics LEDs. They run fine on fixed voltage supplies. Even at 700mA they work perfectly and I've yet to lose a single one. They run on my reef tank, over house plants...no problem. 24/7 since summer, and my camera confirms intensity hasn't dropped a bit.

However, hook a Satistronics 3watter up to a 700mA current regulated supply and 'poof', they die within hours. So, if you want to vote that the problem is entirely the design of the emitter, then we have a serious disagreement.
I never said anything about the emitters being at fault here. It's crappy drivers, period, ironically much the same problem plaguing cheap CFLs. I'll take a good guess that the so-called current regulated supply actually fed the emitter a bunch of multi-amp current spikes chopped up to average 700 mA instead of 700 mA steady. Perfect way to kill an LED. I once killed a Peltier in a couple of hours with a commercial board which fed it a low-frequency PWMed voltage. Meanwhile, my home-made CC drivers ran the same type of Peltier for months.

I'm using a single surplus laptop brick to run every LED array on an entire side of my room, and I'm not close to full capacity. I'm waiting for the 'thermal runaway' that some of you keep claiming will happen. Still waiting. Still waiting......
Like I said, nothing wrong with what you're doing here. You use heat sinks which are overkill. Thermal runaway will never be an issue if you do that, provided you match the supply voltage to the LED's Vf at whatever current you're aiming for. You might end up with a factor of 2 higher current if your LEDs have a much lower Vf than you thought, but no thermal runaway. Now if you use a heat sink which is barely adequate, that's another story ( yes, I've had it happen to me ).

I realize you build your own supplies, and this is perhaps why we have such a radically different perspective. However, the fact remains I've been cobbling together some fairly powerful arrays with a huge variety of LED types, and the fixed voltage approach has yielded near 100 success. Current regulated supplies make nice pretty sparks when they short.
That's the source of our differences. When I make a supply, if I have issues I can fix them. I've been making CC supplies since the early 1990s. First for Peltiers, later for LEDs.
 

Head2Wind

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I am curious if anyone has continued with these emitters? I am a NOOB to the forum, however I am very serious about looking more closely at these for offroad forward facing lights. Application would require a driver that is basically as follows: ~10-15Vdc input, with the spec'd 16.2V/1.5A output per emitter for the BXRA-C2002-00000 .

It appears that Ledil has optics available (inquiry submitted to them for a sample), however I wonder if there are alternatives or perhaps custom solutions?

Sage advise and offerings very welcome
 

Axkiker

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Re: .·´¯`·-> !! 4000+ Lumen Test & BridgeLux LED Review!! <-·´¯`·.

A wallflower chimes in:

On a whim based on Nessus's review, I decided to get a couple of the BXRA-C0800 to play around with.

Couldn't be as annoying as my HIDs. Naaah. Bright but not much worse than that...after all I am an experienced HID guy - nothing can surprise me.

So they came today. I rip open the box and drag everything down the the lab. Grease one to a huge chunk of cold iron I've got laying about and power it up.

Fiat lux, baby.

The thing's bright.

The thing's stupidly bright.

The bloody thing's so stupidly bright birds flying by outside burst into flames and pilots overhead report a nuclear detonation. Maybe I exaggerate, but the damn thing's bright.

HIDs just lost their appeal. Another LED evangelist is born.

Thanks, Nessus!


HAHAHAHAH that just cracked me up

im sold
 

Axkiker

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So im getting ready to purchase one of the 5000lm emitters from newark and will also need to purcahse a dc to dc power supply...


Being that there was just a big discussion on power supplies what do you all recommend. Looking for a rugged product which will survive in an automotive application

thanks
 

Dark_

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For those folks running or planning to run the 5000lm units, what are you using to keep them cool?
 

Lon

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Im looking at a 5000lm as well, for a flood light. Any suggestions on driver with a 12v dc supply?
 

deadrx7conv

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Heatsink? use a big piece of finned aluminum, or a large CPU cooler with fan.
I've posted the dimensions of a typical finned aluminum fanless heatsink 50w outdoor type LED flood light here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ding-a-BRIDGELUX-light-share-your-experiences

I've used 12v DC adjustable step up converters from ebay to power large LEDs from 12v deepcycle/rv batteries. You just have to adjust the output voltage 1st with no load. Then, you connect the heatsink'd LED and verify that the voltage/current are what you want, and readjust as needed. For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/220697691827 http://cgi.ebay.com/160485425684
 

Lon

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bridgelux recommends using a constant current driver rather than a constant voltage, any opinions on that?
 

PhotonWrangler

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Re: .·´¯`·-> !! BridgeLux LED Review & 4000+ Lumen Test!! <-·´¯`·.

You think?! I just did :eek:

it blew me away that even with a peltier that started the run at 29F the junction immediately goes to 200F... :aaa:

That is amazing. You could use a small array of those to build a waffle iron. :eek:

Eutectic solder melts around 364 degrees F. I'm wondering if a fixture based on these should be built with higher temperature silver solder just to have an extra margin.
 

Lon

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Re: .·´¯`·-> !! BridgeLux LED Review & 4000+ Lumen Test!! <-·´¯`·.

:paypal:Oh yea, and there is now a 8000 lumen model available
 
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deadrx7conv

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bridgelux recommends using a constant current driver rather than a constant voltage, any opinions on that?

Recommends isn't a requirement. CC might be more idiot-proof compared to using a DMM to adjust voltage/current as needed.
 

Lon

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Recommends isn't a requirement. CC might be more idiot-proof compared to using a DMM to adjust voltage/current as needed.
I thought it might have been a protective kinda deal, what you said makes sense, I mean if the voltage is at spec the current must be proportionate to the constant load drawn by the device...no?
 

MikeAusC

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. . . . . All it takes is for a bit of solder to hit a ground or poorly isolated pad and you can kiss a string of Cree's goodbye. . . . . .

A failure in a constant voltage supply can also cause overvoltage.


. . . . . The current regulated supply disharges and kills emitters because it's too stupid to tell a short from a full string of LEDs and isn't designed for a specifc task in general. . . . . .

Yes, the current regulated supply is not designed for what you're using it for.


. . . . . Current regulated supplies make nice pretty sparks when they short. . . . .

True, if they're not designed for an appropriate open-circuit voltage.
 

MikeAusC

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I'll add that even though LEDs strictly speaking should be run on constant current, rather than constant voltage, supplies, . . . . .

Why? Who declared that law? . . . . .

The laws of physics did. If you increase the voltage to an LED by 10 %, the power through the LED may increase up to 100 %.

Why is that drivers designed specifically for LEDs are constant-current ? AMC7135 etc. If the readily available constant voltage supplies were suitable, no-one would have bothered developing constant current LED drivers to get better power stability.
 

MikeAusC

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I'm in the process of writing up my modifications to a $12.00 DC-DC converter which will convert 12 volts to 30 volts at up to 3 amps to drive a 100 watt LED array.

I've modified the constant voltage output to add true current-sensing and it's designed to vary the current between 3 and 0.3 amps by changing the sensing resistor. I'm using Low=0.3, Mid=1.0, Hi=3.0 amps. There's only 0.5 volt across the resistor, so it's very efficient.

I've set the open-circuit voltage so that it won't exceed a safe current level for the LED array. If you don't do that, the output capacitors charge up and then dump excess current into the LED, which the Constant-current circuit cannot regulate, as it's before the output capacitor.

I have one of the Chinese 100 watt LED arrays and it's working well to drive that.
 
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