Coronavirus - II

[archimedes]

This thread is being derailed again by, yes, politics.

It needs to stay on track, or another pause will be taken here.

As always, I remind you all are welcome to move that aspect of your discussion to the CPF Underground.

 

[raggie33]

This thread is being derailed again by, yes, politics.

It needs to stay on track, or another pause will be taken here.

As always, I remind you all are welcome to move that aspect of your discussion to the CPF Underground.

im not brave enough for the ug. im to darn sensitive.

 

[Kestrel]

No offense, but you are delusional. [...]

For point of record the 'no offense' preamble doesn't magically make these sorts of direct personal attacks permissible in the forums.
Thank you in advance & best regards,

 

[SCEMan]

Honestly, if influential individuals on both sides of politics could put their equally hate-filled bickering aside and do what needs to be done for the betterment of EVERYONE, this virus would have burned itself out months ago. But I guess that's asking too much from Humanity.

Might have been nice if China stopped all Wuhan province & international flights in December when health officials were told that a new coronavirus is causing the illness.

 

[chillinn]

For point of record the 'no offense' preamble doesn't magically make these sorts of direct personal attacks permissible in the forums.
Thank you in advance & best regards,

Personal attack unintended, used a manner of speaking, but I see now that came off far too wrong, and course you are right. I apologize to the board and to Monocrom. I will rephrase.

 

[bykfixer]

I remember a while ago lots of people saying they were hoping for a vaccine soon. Now many of those same people are saying aint no way they'll get the vaccine. I'll get one eventually but my thoughts are same as buying the first model year of a car……I'll wait a little to see if there are bugs in the system.

 

[Monocrom]

Might have been nice if China stopped all Wuhan province & international flights in December when health officials were told that a new coronavirus is causing the illness.

Absolutely! Do what's best for everyone. But....
sometimes it's individuals doing what is best for themselves. Sometimes you get a Nation only thinking of their own self interests. Just another example of how things are.

 

[bigburly912]

I remember a while ago lots of people saying they were hoping for a vaccine soon. Now many of those same people are saying aint no way they'll get the vaccine. I'll get one eventually but my thoughts are same as buying the first model year of a car……I'll wait a little to see if there are bugs in the system.

Ever seen I Am Legend?

 

[chillinn]

The anti-science, anti-education, pro-conspiracy theory element in our society cannot be silenced... but we can ignore them, and if they refuse vaccination, for the sake of herd immunity, we can legislate against them, and fine them, which will coax them to accept a preventative medicine that is infinitely less dangerous and damaging to them than all the fast food, soda and alcohol they willfully consume.

 

[Monocrom]

Ever seen I Am Legend?

That's a movie. A very entertaining one, and Charlton Heston did it better with "The Omega Man" in 1971 based on the very same novella, but still a movie. bykfixer has an excellent point though, and obviously things can go horribly wrong with a vaccine. Still, not to the level of what took place in both films. There will be brave individuals willing to be first. And, I honestly salute them for it. Though I doubt a vaccine would turn us into zombie/vampire hybrids. I will be waiting to see what happens to that first batch of brave individuals before I get a shot.

 

[chillinn]

obviously things can go horribly wrong with a vaccine.

Respectfully, name one instance of this ever occurring, please, unless you are referring to some adverse reaction in 0.00032% of the population.

 

[bigburly912]

That's a movie. A very entertaining one, and Charlton Heston did it better with "The Omega Man" in 1971 based on the very same novella, but still a movie. bykfixer has an excellent point though, and obviously things can go horribly wrong with a vaccine. Still, not to the level of what took place in both films. There will be brave individuals willing to be first. And, I honestly salute them for it. Though I doubt a vaccine would turn us into zombie/vampire hybrids. I will be waiting to see what happens to that first batch of brave individuals before I get a shot.

Dear lord son did you think I was being serious?

 

[Monocrom]

Dear lord son did you think I was being serious?

Considering this topic, it was a fair assumption.
Glad to hear you weren't.

 

[Kestrel]

Respectfully, name one instance of this ever occurring, please, unless you are referring to some adverse reaction in 0.00032% of the population.

The Cutter Incident
[...] The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis—and of these, five children died from polio.[2]​ The exposures led to an epidemic of polio in the families and communities of the affected children, resulting in a further 113 people paralyzed and 5 deaths. [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories#Cutter_incident

Not going to bother with working out percentages, but a defective vaccine causing 40,000 cases of disease is not insignificant.

No dog in this fight, just wanted to throw that out there since there was a query.

 

[Kestrel]

[...] fwiw, I am anti-partisan and pro-liberty... yet not libertarian, as it inevitably must lead to tragedy of the commons, and, ultimately, socialism. I am left of center, but I miss Sen. McCain immensely, and have no idea how he did not win his Party's nomination in 2016. That is who his Party needs, someone like McCain, military background, impeccable morals, with a strong backbone, and yet... a lot younger. Or someone like Eisenhower, but younger. Find them and fix the Party this one guy and tea libertarians have shattered. Apparently, there will be plenty of time on the outside of power to accomplish this. I'll be waiting. tl;dr don't care who is in power, as long as they are competent and honest, and not greedily self-serving, shallow, and xenophobic.

The post above serves as the very last political post for this thread, among other things. Period.

 

[chillinn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories#Cutter_incident

Not going to bother with working out percentages, but a defective vaccine causing 40,000 cases of disease is not insignificant.

No dog in this fight, just wanted to throw that out there since there was a query.

This can't be used as an example and I will explain some of it, and trust you will do due diligence to convince yourself, learn the details, and understand that this can not possibly be representative of all vaccine.

There are complicated reasons why the two polio vaccines, in particular, have issues that other vaccines would not, and it has to do with, on the one hand, one polio vaccine containing live polio virus and the other containing dead polio virus, and on the other hand, what level of advancement the regional society is where vaccinations being given. The vaccine containing live virus is more dangerous, yet it must be used in Third World countries at risk of outbreak or epidemic, while in First and Second World countries, the vaccine containing the dead polio virus is sufficient and more ideal. I believe it possibly has something to do with a booster shot for the vaccine with dead polio virus that needs to happen at a certain time, after 4 months, and this is unlikely to be applied in Third World countries, where individuals may not have an actual address even if they live somewhere, nor identification. The polio vaccine with the live virus does not need that booster.

I hesitate to say more because in the details I will get tripped up, but that should be enough for any to find the reasons for my first statement above, that this can not be used as an example of a general case for vaccines, because it could only be true of polio vaccines in our world of variable levels of technology, economics, and closely linked, sanitation and health care.

You can not apply this to any other vaccine as some example that, "whoa, we gotta be careful with this because of how wrong this can go," and suggesting so could would spread this false idea, causing reluctance to vaccinations. The damage that Jenny McCarthy has done is unknowable, but it is significant. We don't want that. Nothing like this could possibly happen with any of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, nor any other vaccine, such as measles. What is assured is that not getting vaccinated for such things as measles causes unnecessary outbreaks. With the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, when available, it is a no brainer that everyone should be vaccinated, and there is no cause to democratize this among those without scientific or biological education to weigh the risks. It makes best sense to get vaccinated as soon as possible, and if enough percentage get vaccinated, herd immunity will kick in for those that for whatever reasons did not get vaccinated. 50% won't get it done. Most need to get vaccinated for herd immunity to materialize.

 

[bigburly912]

I don't need to speak for kestrel but you literally said "name one instance"

 

[Poppy]

The anti-science, anti-education, pro-conspiracy theory element in our society cannot be silenced... but we can ignore them, and if they refuse vaccination, for the sake of herd immunity, we can legislate against them, and fine them, which will coax them to accept a preventative medicine that is infinitely less dangerous and damaging to them than all the fast food, soda and alcohol they willfully consume.

It seems that there are new drugs on the market every few months, each of which have gone through many trials, and years of testing prior to being released into the professional medical community for prescription to a selective population. The litany of possible side effects often include things such as: death due to anaphylactic shock, heart attack, stroke, seizures, kidney, liver, or bladder dysfunction, and a litany of other complications. With thi slitany of possible side effects they are still released.

Yet, many of the side effects are not discovered, until years later. For example, prozac...

Lilly Settles 30 Suits for $50 Million. The FDA approved Prozac in 1987, and just a few years later, the drug had its first lawsuits. Lawsuits alleged that Eli Lilly was "grossly negligent" in its failure to properly warn doctors and consumers about potential dangers, including violent, aggressive and suicidal behavior ...

35 years ago, aspirin sent more people to the hospital with bleeding ulcers than any other medication and resulted in a high mortality rate.

Is autism related to the DPT vaccine? Idk, I can't take a position on either side, but the argument goes on.

Forced inoculation? Are we living in NAZI Germany?

Regarding artificial immunizations and herd immunity: IF the immunization actually works, then those who are immunized have nothing to fear from those who are not.

 

[chillinn]

I don't need to speak for kestrel but you literally said "name one instance"

And I rationally argued that polio is a special case and no other vaccines can compare to it. So name another instance of vaccinations going horribly wrong, as polio vaccines are not a valid general case.

And I am nearly certain Kestrel can stand up for and speak for himself. It isn't as though I have beat him up and I'm just picking on him, I really do expect him to come to the same conclusion as I have and realize that using polio vaccinations as a reason not to trust vaccinations is completely, entirely and utterly out of bounds.

 

[Kestrel]

I don't need to speak for kestrel but you literally said "name one instance"

And to paraphrase one of my heroes, Charlie Munger;
":thumbsup:"

Like I said, 'No dog in this fight'; there was a prompt for information so I supplied it.
Not really a conversation topic I personally get animated about, that's all.