123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

[NewBie]

Okay, folks were asking for sound...

100 dollars later, and a trip to Fry's, here you go, with sound:

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/vent6_6.wmv


Bear with me, it is my first video edit, and it is well, ehm...

 

[Beamhead]

Wow, sound makes a huge difference. The first couple pops/bangs sound a bit scary.

 

[B@rt]

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Newbie,

This is turning into a great reference thread. Thanks for all of your hard work.

This is an excellent illustration of "rapid venting, with flame." It seems that the temperatures get up there as well. I saw over 700 F residual after you switched scales on your meter. Add to this the fumes and smoke and you have the potential of a very dangerous situation.

It is good that the CPF community can see these results first hand. For the most part, our lights do not run into these problems, but being aware of what can happen will allow us to take proper precautions, and develop a plan of action on what to do when problems arise.

Once again, Thanks!!!

Tom

 

[wptski]

Okay, folks were asking for sound...

100 dollars later, and a trip to Fry's, here you go, with sound:

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/vent6_6.wmv


Bear with me, it is my first video edit, and it is well, ehm...

Wow! I knew that sound was coming but I still jumped!

 

[jtice]

Great job !!!

You can read all the data you want, but nothing drives it home like seeing it like that.

Make sure to have your sound on when you watch it,
theres all sorts of pops and crakles!

~John

 

[NewBie]

If you turn the sound up, you can hear all the crackles and stuff, it is interesting.

Last night, I had a cell vent that was only 100 degrees Fahrenheit. I'll try and get a video of it up today. It was only a minor venting incident though.

 

[NewBie]

Opps, I forgot the low temp venting video, I'll try and get it tomorrow.

Meanwhile, this isn't one of the fireballs, but I have a video now of a cell that ejected it's internals. It is minor, but it shows basically what happens.

It is possible to get them to vent on occassion when the ambient temperature is 100F- like in this video. This time the cell vented about 5 minutes after the bulb went out. Which once again emphasizes the importance of shutting off the light when the bulb dims or goes out, and locking it out to assure the flashlight is actually off and the circuit is not completed.

In my testing so far, I've only gotten one SureFire cell to vent, and it is what I'd consider a minor vent, in this 30% depletion scenario (varied it from 10 to 40%), and ran about 30 sets of cells from four different batches. It does not mean that it is highly unlikely to vent, just that the current scenario that I am testing causes no venting. Ran four sets of them in a PM6.

I tested six sets of USA Browning cells in this specific scenario, and got no venting incidents. Half were run in the PM6. Tests on going.

I tested six sets of Chinese made Sanyo cells in this specific scenario, and got no venting incidents. Half were run in the PM6.

I tested 10 sets of USA Streamlight cells in this specific scenario, and got no venting incidents. Half were run in the PM6. Tests on going.

I tested 10 sets of USA Duracell cells in this specific scenario, and got no venting incidents. Half were run in the PM6. Tests on going.

I've tested 10 sets of USA Energizer cells in this specific scenario, and got no venting incidents. Half were run in the PM6. Tests on going.

I've ran 60 sets of Battery Station cells in this specific scenario, and got venting over 75% the time, and nearly 100% venting in the PM6. I have to emphasize that the cells need to be mis-matched by 30% (discharged by 30% on purpose and used with a fresh cell) to cause the failure mode, when they are matched e.g. ZTS tested, I was unable to get them to vent.

I've yet to make it to the Panasonic USA cells, but internally they are identical to the Energizer/SureFire/Browning/Streamlight.


Battery Station contributed six sets of Duracells, six sets of Energizers, six sets of Sanyos, six sets of Energizer, a bunch of Battery Station cells, and a PM6, McGizmo sent one box of 12 SureFire cells, Cmoore contributed one PM6 so I could continue testing in the light, and dat2zip sent 3 PM6. Please applaud these fellas for their donations!

As soon as I make it thru this round of testing, and get some more cells on order, I plan on doing some instrumentation, and internal cell investigation.


Finally, the latest video. It is far from the most violent, but it does show a minor guts ejection incident. I recommend you turn the sound up to hear everything.

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/vent10h.wmv

.

 

[McGizmo]

Newbie,
Thanks for all of the work and time and effort here!!! Talk, type and speculation may be cheap but your work here is invaluable in giving us insight!! :bow: :bow:

 

[NewBie]

Newbie,
Thanks for all of the work and time and effort here!!! Talk, type and speculation may be cheap but your work here is invaluable in giving us insight!! :bow: :bow:

Thanks. Hopefully I don't send myself to the poor house in the process, lol.

If there is a lithium cell tracking database, I bet my name was already flashing red, a month ago.

Some folks wanted a slow motion of the above video, I'll see what I can do. I'll just do the venting portion to conserve video size, my ISP hasn't screamed at me yet...

 

[Beamhead]

Slow motion video would be sweet!.

 

[NewBie]

Okay, how is this?

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/vent10s.wmv

We have some sparks a bit past the middle, and additional ones at the very end, so be patient. Watching the beginning a few times, you see something new each time.

 

[cy]

betcha... a lot of folks would like to do more than say thanks, by supporting your efforts. As this valuable work benifits all of us.

sure wish you would post paypal info or other means to send funds!!!!

Thanks. Hopefully I don't send myself to the poor house in the process, lol..

 

[McGizmo]

Newbie,
What CY said!!!!! I have 3 more boxes as well as a 27LT headed your way as you know but it would be nice if the community could help pick up the tab on this work of yours!!

I don't know about Tom (SilverFox) but I was a bit disappointed that we ended up with as much of the tab on the light tests as we did. (Many thanks to those who did contribute to Tom; I don't know who you all are but that is not the point, really).

Anyway, if you don't want to provide your PP address, perhaps someone else could accept funds on your behalf and forward on to you? (I am not volunteering here, BTW!!!)

Thanks again though and I look forward to page 2 where we won't have such a long load time!!!

 

[liqht]

newbie, have you seen any reports of incidents involving single cells? is this phenomenon attributable ONLY to configurations where there are multiple cells with mismatched charge? thanks...

 

[NewBie]

newbie, have you seen any reports of incidents involving single cells? is this phenomenon attributable ONLY to configurations where there are multiple cells with mismatched charge? thanks...

There is the one Air Canada reference above, and a link to the document. I think it was a single cell LED. But there are no specifics, so it is really hard to say. For the scenario we are talking about here at the moment, you need two cells. Thats not to say there isn't another scenario which could cause issues.

I have not seen any reference or mention from a CPF'er on a single cell lithium primary failing in an LED light.

I'd been searching for a failure mode for a months worth of testing and so far, the only thing I have found is the mis-matched cell scenario- which is easy to imagine occuring, due to new cells comming in various states of charge (some folks have had occasional cells so depleted, that they have only worked for five minutes).

All the incidents have been on 2 cell Primary Lithium 123 batteries with Incandescents which we have seen around here, so far. Besides the single cell AA Lithium that failed in some cell phone charger hooyah.

Humm, well, McGizmo, if folks want to pick up a bit of the cell cost, I guess I could accept that. I'd prefer not to get dollars, but cells. Right now, I'd really like to see a few more BS cells (for instrumented testing), and some other brands that folks utilize, which I haven't tested yet. It would be good, if a well know CPF'er could handle it.


Anyhow, I was asked for a small snippet of the main part of the last video, in slow motion. I just got back from buying 1GB of CAS 2 RAM to add to the machine I do the editing on. I kept the size small for low bandwidth users, it is about 2.6MB.


http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/ven10sm.wmv


.

 

[wquiles]

Thanks NewBie for all of the valuable and relevant data you have collected and shared with us here - much appretiated

Will

 

[NewBie]

Here is that video of a cell venting down at 100 degrees Fahrenheit, only 2MB in size:

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/100degv.wmv

 

[Billson]

I have not seen any reference or mention from a CPF'er on a single cell lithium primary failing in an LED light.

Actually, I've personally experienced a Yuntong cell failure while using my Arc LS about 2 years ago. I guess this was still an unheard of incident back then so no one responded and the thread died without resolution.

Here's the thread

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=52326

 

[NewBie]

Okay, here is another venting video, this is a very minor fireball type event that can happen:

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/vent12sn.wmv