230% Efficient LEDs

Mattaus

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Anyways, the 230% claim is rather arbitrary if you ask me since it's as open loop as you can get. But thermodynamically speaking there's nothing magical going on there. It's analogous to pumping up hot water and then stuffing it through a generator. Suppose the pump etc is 100 Watt and you can load the generator output by 230 Watt then your clever marketing monkeys can say "tada! 230% efficient! ^_^" in exactly the same way as these guys are doing.

I'm hungover and running on 3 hours sleep. I am an engineer so I should understand this but I'm struggling right now. Can you break this down a bit? It looks like it makes sense to me, but I want to be sure lol. When I posted the article above my first thought was how could it be 230% efficient without bringing out all the free energy crazies? I was waiting for someone to explain it well and your heat pump analogy seems pretty solid...
 

uk_caver

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In terms of thermodynamics, how does electrical energy compare to electromagnetic radiation of various frequencies?

That is, is it theoretically possible to start off with some heat and some electrical energy and end up with less heat and more 'light' energy than the original electrical energy while still increasing overall entropy?
 

AnAppleSnail

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The MIT group is, fortunately, not claiming to violate the laws of thermodynamics. I'm trying a new list-based way to organize my replies, but it won't help if I'm reading these things wrong. Take this with a whopping grain of salt!

1. Thermodynamics is a statistical study.
Everything moves, but it's hard to model this. One of my professors main interest is in modeling single molecules of complex biological things - like "When this protein folds, exactly how does it interact" or "What are the exact polymerization kinetics of Nylon 6,6?" In solids, the moving atoms can be modeled as a lattice of balls separated by springs. Kick one ball and its neighbors wiggle. This energy spreads through the substance in waves. Some is expressed as sound, some as light. We call these waves 'Phonons' because in their early study it was thought they were only sound. (Incidentally, one can calculate, quite accurately, the mass of a given metal's atoms with just the speed of sound in that metal).

2. Warm objects vibrate, and this leads to interesting effects.
Pardon the Wiki Link: Phonon: Acoustic and optical phonons. Phonons are the vibrations of atoms in solids, and they can emit photons under certain circumstances met in many diodes. I THINK that this is what's happening: That they are measuring energy that is always emitted. The LED running at low power may regulate the wavelength of the phonon emissions, or I may be spouting complete crap.
 

pretmetled

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In terms of thermodynamics, how does electrical energy compare to electromagnetic radiation of various frequencies?

I'm 230% sure I don't quite understand that question.

That is, is it theoretically possible to start off with some heat and some electrical energy and end up with less heat and more 'light' energy than the original electrical energy while still increasing overall entropy?

Sure. I'll take your "some electrical energy" to mean a 9 Volt battery stolen from a passing energizer bunny. I will further take your "some heat" to mean a big stick of iron that has been conveniently heated to say 1500 Kelvin. Now during the experiment you hold up the heated iron stick, allowing it to radiate a couple Watts worth of photons. Then touch tip of tongue to 9 Volt battery. Et voila, several Watts worth of radiated photons, and only a couple uW used. Damn, now that's efficiency!

So as you can see, efficiency is all about the system definition.

PS: For a further increase in efficiency, do not lick battery.
 

AnAppleSnail

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So as you can see, efficiency is all about the system definition.
Please read my post which attempts to explain what is happening in a way people without expertise in quantum physics can understand. Thermal energy can be converted to photons, as can lattice vibrations.
 

bshanahan14rulz

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monochromatic sources are easy to convert to mW. All the photons have the same energy. White light or mixed light is harder because each photon of a different wavelength carries a different amount of energy.
 

pretmetled

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Curious indeed.... this post was transported 4 years in the past and is now a pro-actove reply to the OP before the OP even thought about P-ing his OP. o_O

...


Please read my post which attempts to explain what is happening in a way people without expertise in quantum physics can understand.

If you mean the post right above in this thread, then yes I read it since it's right above in this thread.

Thermal energy can be converted to photons, as can lattice vibrations.

Which is what the hot metal stick example was exemplifying. ;)

...

edit: now why is this post suddenly listed at top of thread? o_O .... editing post to hopefully "fix" that.
 
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fyrstormer

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Okay guys, let's get one thing straight: when they say "230% efficient" what they mean is it's outputting 230% as much light as scientific models say it should given the amount of input electricity. The extra power is coming from ambient heat in the environment. As the LED draws heat out of the environment and the environment gets colder, the amount of light outputted will start to drop back down to what the scientific models say it should be.
 

Mattaus

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Okay guys, let's get one thing straight: when they say "230% efficient" what they mean is it's outputting 230% as much light as scientific models say it should given the amount of input electricity. The extra power is coming from ambient heat in the environment. As the LED draws heat out of the environment and the environment gets colder, the amount of light outputted will start to drop back down to what the scientific models say it should be.

Sounds about right. The extra energy has to come from somewhere!
 

zzonbi

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"Usually we ignore the entropy and think of light as work,"

So if light is not the work how is the led efficient at all? No work, no efficiency talk.

"They also heated the LED to 135 °C to provide more lattice heat. In this regime, less than 0.1% of the electrons passing through the LED produced a photon."

Did they account for the rest of 99.9% of current?
And keeping that high temperature in practice seems quite lossy.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...D-converts-heat-into-light-efficiency-gt-200-!

The basic idea is sound though, always x^2>kx after some point, so before that there should be more "light".
 
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