desmondpun
Newly Enlightened
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A DIY Cruise Missile
- Thread starter desmondpun
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desmondpun
Newly Enlightened
e=mc²
Enlightened
I just hope that this individual doesn't cause the gov't to reverse it's decision on Selective Availability, that is, the inherent deletion or encryption of satellite data so that civilian GPS receivers have built-in errors(intentionally). Since they removed SA, my GPS fixes have been extremely satisfactory. Prior to its removal, the accuracy was +/- 50 ft at best. That would really suck as I have invested quite a bit in GPS units since SA's removal.
Ed
Ed
DieselDave
Super Moderator,
I would like to think that when it's built he will be charged with producing a WMD.
e=mc²
Enlightened
Dave, wouldn't that require him to have a destructive payload. I realize that the missle itself could cause harm in-flight with civilian aircraft as well as post flight, when it runs out of fuel. Unless he guides it into an empty field of some sort. I DO think he is tempting fate by doing this as Uncle Sam doesn't have a sense of humor about things of this nature as of late...
Ed.
Ed.
DieselDave
Super Moderator,
Ed,
I don't know.
I find it disturbing someone would want to create a potential serious threat and sell the info.
I don't know.
I find it disturbing someone would want to create a potential serious threat and sell the info.
Floating Spots
Enlightened
The info is already out there.
All he has done is collect it.
I haven't read his story yet, but I read some commentary.
A lot of people are sitting up and taking notice.
All he has done is collect it.
I haven't read his story yet, but I read some commentary.
A lot of people are sitting up and taking notice.
1. If I remember right, that guy is in Australia, outside what we usually think of as Uncle Sam's jurisdiction.
2. I don't think that guy's missile seriously expands arms proliferation. If some random dictator wants cruise missiles, they don't have to build them, they can buy Chinese Silkworms (much more range and payload, I think) on the black market.
3. A year or two I'd have said SA is unlikely to ever be turned back on. It existed in the first place because there was no way to deny the civilian GPS signal to an enemy by jamming it, without jamming the entire GPS signal including the more precise military signal that our own forces depend on). So they fuzzed the civilian signal, meaning even if the enemy used it, he couldn't hit small targets with it. But technology improved and the Pentagon developed ways to jam only the civilian signal while still retaining use of the military signal. That means they no longer needed to fuzz the civilian signal, since in a battlefield situation they can now squash it completely which is even better than fuzzing it.
4. However, now that we have to think about GPS being used in unexpected terror attacks rather than theaters of conflict where they can turn on the jammers, maybe there's some chance of SA reappearing. The Europeans apparently feel that way since after the Iraq war they decided to deploy the Galileo system (sort of like GPS but it will require new receivers and paid subscriptions) after all. Galileo had been on the boards for years, and part of the argument for disabling SA was that offering the non-fuzzed signal made it less likely for an alternative system to be built (thus giving us more signals we might need to jam in a conflict). That succeeded for a while but apparently in the current climate the EU decided it needed a backup to GPS.
2. I don't think that guy's missile seriously expands arms proliferation. If some random dictator wants cruise missiles, they don't have to build them, they can buy Chinese Silkworms (much more range and payload, I think) on the black market.
3. A year or two I'd have said SA is unlikely to ever be turned back on. It existed in the first place because there was no way to deny the civilian GPS signal to an enemy by jamming it, without jamming the entire GPS signal including the more precise military signal that our own forces depend on). So they fuzzed the civilian signal, meaning even if the enemy used it, he couldn't hit small targets with it. But technology improved and the Pentagon developed ways to jam only the civilian signal while still retaining use of the military signal. That means they no longer needed to fuzz the civilian signal, since in a battlefield situation they can now squash it completely which is even better than fuzzing it.
4. However, now that we have to think about GPS being used in unexpected terror attacks rather than theaters of conflict where they can turn on the jammers, maybe there's some chance of SA reappearing. The Europeans apparently feel that way since after the Iraq war they decided to deploy the Galileo system (sort of like GPS but it will require new receivers and paid subscriptions) after all. Galileo had been on the boards for years, and part of the argument for disabling SA was that offering the non-fuzzed signal made it less likely for an alternative system to be built (thus giving us more signals we might need to jam in a conflict). That succeeded for a while but apparently in the current climate the EU decided it needed a backup to GPS.
GeoffChan
Enlightened
e=mc²
Enlightened
Let's face it, SA would't do too much anyway, since before it was removed, my typical positional error was approx +/- 66 feet. If they programmed the missile for dead center of a bulding, assuming the payload was a dirty bomb, what difference does a few feet here or there matter anyway? It'll still take out the intended target, maybe just not as accurate as now where they could come close to hitting a specific room, they would still be able to strike at let's say a large sports complex or shopping center and do signifigant damage.
Technology IS a good thing, but sometimes it can be abused by anyone driven enough to try. But look at 911...not too much technology used there, with the exception of possibily the internet being used by El Kaida to send encrypted messages.
E-
Ed.
Technology IS a good thing, but sometimes it can be abused by anyone driven enough to try. But look at 911...not too much technology used there, with the exception of possibily the internet being used by El Kaida to send encrypted messages.
E-
Ed.
SA isn't simply on or off, the amount of fuzzing is adjustable. According to the spec (when it was on) they were allowed to set it to any amount they wanted between 0 and 100 meters. In fact they changed the setting a number of times, including setting it to zero for a day or two when a USAF A-10 crashed in the Rockies and civilian rescue workers needed precise GPS to coordinate the wreckage search. Toward the end, yes, it was set pretty low, which is why you got 66 foot accuracy. When it was set higher you would have been off by hundreds of feet.
SA's designers weren't really thinking about terrorists or dirty bombs, but rather normal military stuff, missiles and artillery, aimed at military targets. That the COCOM regulation prohibiting civilian GPS receivers from working over 60k feet or at above some speed (around mach 0.8 I think) is called the "anti-Scud rule" shows what they had in mind.
SA's designers weren't really thinking about terrorists or dirty bombs, but rather normal military stuff, missiles and artillery, aimed at military targets. That the COCOM regulation prohibiting civilian GPS receivers from working over 60k feet or at above some speed (around mach 0.8 I think) is called the "anti-Scud rule" shows what they had in mind.
Tombeis
Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
Geoffchan said:
The guy is in New Zealand.
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/cruise.shtml
Geoff
[/ QUOTE ]
Geoff: Does that mean you approve or disapprove? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Geoffchan said:
The guy is in New Zealand.
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/cruise.shtml
Geoff
[/ QUOTE ]
Geoff: Does that mean you approve or disapprove? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Josh
Flashlight Enthusiast
I sure hope that Dr.Demento is playing with a full deck....
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
imho this guy is about as serious as that guy who has been claiming to be about to launch himself into space from his backyard for the past three years, putting the launch date off a year, every year -- whatever happened to him?
here is all the cruise missile guy needs to just get started:
I've drawn up a list of parts, tools and materials necessary to get this project going:
* A GPS system with computer interface
* A single-board computer (flight control)
* A radio control system. (testing and flight control)
* Stainless steel sheet (for building the pulsejet engine)
* Various metal-working tools for building the pulsejet engine)
* Expanded polystyrene sheet (for the basic airframe)
* Fiberglass or kevlar cloth, mat and resins (for the airframe)
..suuure, a little stainless sheet metal and some Edward Scissorhands action with the tin snips, and; viola! a Williams cruise missile engine, (yup) ready to ROCK, riiiiiiiight! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
here is all the cruise missile guy needs to just get started:
I've drawn up a list of parts, tools and materials necessary to get this project going:
* A GPS system with computer interface
* A single-board computer (flight control)
* A radio control system. (testing and flight control)
* Stainless steel sheet (for building the pulsejet engine)
* Various metal-working tools for building the pulsejet engine)
* Expanded polystyrene sheet (for the basic airframe)
* Fiberglass or kevlar cloth, mat and resins (for the airframe)
..suuure, a little stainless sheet metal and some Edward Scissorhands action with the tin snips, and; viola! a Williams cruise missile engine, (yup) ready to ROCK, riiiiiiiight! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Re your list:
GPS with computer interface: available off the shelf
Single-board computer: off the shelf
Radio control system: off the shelf
Tools and materials: off the shelf
The guy appears to have built working pulsejet engines
before. The cruise missile is a straightforward follow-on.
GPS with computer interface: available off the shelf
Single-board computer: off the shelf
Radio control system: off the shelf
Tools and materials: off the shelf
The guy appears to have built working pulsejet engines
before. The cruise missile is a straightforward follow-on.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
the "pulse jet" he shows is basically a tube that blows gasoline -- not all that complex, like the V-1 rockets.. I saw the one he talks about on that TV show Junkyard Wars; just a sheet metal tube basically, with gas and air blown in one end and the fumes blow out the other end, not exactly a mach-6 turbo-fan..
missile link :
As defined by the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, a cruise missile is "an unmanned, self-propelled vehicle that sustains flight through the use of aerodynamic lift over most of its flight path, and such a missile may carry either a nuclear or conventional warhead (U.S. Weapon Systems 1). Figure 2 outlines the positioning of a typical cruise missileís components. Powered by turbofans, the cruise missileís mission is to deliver a high-explosive
bomb to a precise location. At launch, the TLAM-C/D includes a solid rocket booster that falls away once it has burned its fuel. The wings, tail fins, air inlet unfold, and the turbofan engine takes over. This engine weighs just 145 pounds (65 kg) and produces 600 pounds of thrust burning RJ4 fuel. The fuel load is 800 to 1,000 pounds (450 kg) of fuel at launch, or approximately 150 gallons (600 liters) (3). It is known for its incredible accuracy, due to the four guidance systems it incorporates. The Inertial Guidance System, TERCOM, DSMAC, and GPS (Block III variant only) systems enable the Tomahawk the ability to fly for 1,000 miles and hit a target the size of a single-car garage (3). The IGS is a standard acceleration-based system that can roughly keep track of the missileís location based on the accelerations it detects in the missile's motion. Once it is close to the target, the missile switches to a "terminal guidance system" to choose the point of impact (4). The point of impact can be pre-programmed by the GPS or TERCOM system. The DSMAC system uses a camera and an image correlator to find the target, and is especially useful if the target is moving. The two conventional warheads were previously mentioned in the ìDevelopmentî section in the Introduction. These are the conventional 1,000-pound high explosive and the 1,000-pound cluster bomblet warhead that showers a target with a rain of softball sized bombs (4). The bomblet version is designed to be deployed directly against "soft" targets such as people, trucks, buildings and light armored vehicles (Naval Warfare Journal 10).
missile link :
As defined by the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, a cruise missile is "an unmanned, self-propelled vehicle that sustains flight through the use of aerodynamic lift over most of its flight path, and such a missile may carry either a nuclear or conventional warhead (U.S. Weapon Systems 1). Figure 2 outlines the positioning of a typical cruise missileís components. Powered by turbofans, the cruise missileís mission is to deliver a high-explosive
bomb to a precise location. At launch, the TLAM-C/D includes a solid rocket booster that falls away once it has burned its fuel. The wings, tail fins, air inlet unfold, and the turbofan engine takes over. This engine weighs just 145 pounds (65 kg) and produces 600 pounds of thrust burning RJ4 fuel. The fuel load is 800 to 1,000 pounds (450 kg) of fuel at launch, or approximately 150 gallons (600 liters) (3). It is known for its incredible accuracy, due to the four guidance systems it incorporates. The Inertial Guidance System, TERCOM, DSMAC, and GPS (Block III variant only) systems enable the Tomahawk the ability to fly for 1,000 miles and hit a target the size of a single-car garage (3). The IGS is a standard acceleration-based system that can roughly keep track of the missileís location based on the accelerations it detects in the missile's motion. Once it is close to the target, the missile switches to a "terminal guidance system" to choose the point of impact (4). The point of impact can be pre-programmed by the GPS or TERCOM system. The DSMAC system uses a camera and an image correlator to find the target, and is especially useful if the target is moving. The two conventional warheads were previously mentioned in the ìDevelopmentî section in the Introduction. These are the conventional 1,000-pound high explosive and the 1,000-pound cluster bomblet warhead that showers a target with a rain of softball sized bombs (4). The bomblet version is designed to be deployed directly against "soft" targets such as people, trucks, buildings and light armored vehicles (Naval Warfare Journal 10).
Floating Spots
Enlightened
So are you saying its not a cruise missile, its just a guided in the ballpark missile?
How about :
The threat posed by missile proliferation has traditionally been seen predominantly in terms of ballistic missiles. But the ballistic missile is far from representing the totality of the missile threat.
Modern cruise missiles carry a similar size warhead as a ballistic missile over a similar range, but deliver it with far greater accuracy and at a fraction of a ballistic missile's cost. Moreover, the means to develop advanced cruise missiles can increasingly be obtained on the open market.
http://www.cdiss.org/cmthreat.htm
I take it that anything that is propelled and guided into a final possition is a cruise missle.
How about :
The threat posed by missile proliferation has traditionally been seen predominantly in terms of ballistic missiles. But the ballistic missile is far from representing the totality of the missile threat.
Modern cruise missiles carry a similar size warhead as a ballistic missile over a similar range, but deliver it with far greater accuracy and at a fraction of a ballistic missile's cost. Moreover, the means to develop advanced cruise missiles can increasingly be obtained on the open market.
http://www.cdiss.org/cmthreat.htm
I take it that anything that is propelled and guided into a final possition is a cruise missle.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Spots, sure why not. I posted that to illustrate the differences between the propulsion systems, the pulsejet and the turbo-fan as now used in the Tomahawk missiles..You could build your own, but it might be cheaper to buy one now that they're being mass-produced in New Mexico for $550,000.00 per kaboom...(half the price of last year's)...
Floating Spots
Enlightened
Well, I think his $5k limit is at fault.
You know you can buy model jet engines for model airplanes.
See for an examples : http://www.netaxs.com/~mhmyers/turbine.html
Ducted fan jet:
http://www.netaxs.com/~mhmyers/cdjpgs/fanjet.jpg
Manufactures:
http://www.artesjet.com/products.htm
http://usamt.com/
There are lots of them, in all scales and speeds.
This was just from a quick search.
Why not just buy a model and attach your electronics and payload?
Some RC groups say that they were extensively checked out after 9/11. There was even rumbling on regulating this hobby. Anyone wonder why?
This guy isn't the first to come up with the idea. Just the first to get attention and start to execute the idea.
You know you can buy model jet engines for model airplanes.
See for an examples : http://www.netaxs.com/~mhmyers/turbine.html
Ducted fan jet:
http://www.netaxs.com/~mhmyers/cdjpgs/fanjet.jpg
Manufactures:
http://www.artesjet.com/products.htm
http://usamt.com/
There are lots of them, in all scales and speeds.
This was just from a quick search.
Why not just buy a model and attach your electronics and payload?
Some RC groups say that they were extensively checked out after 9/11. There was even rumbling on regulating this hobby. Anyone wonder why?
This guy isn't the first to come up with the idea. Just the first to get attention and start to execute the idea.
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