About LED driver boards

[Rick NJ]

[/begin: rant]

You know, this flashlight driver circuit market is such a circus.

I just got into this flashlight game. I had thought modifying these silly little LED drivers (with so few components on board) would be a cakewalk. Just like the cheap Chinese power supply boards, I can look for datasheets of the chip, figure out how the chips are connected, and man-handle them into submission.

Nope. Not so easy. Info is as scares as hens teeth. The same board from different supplier has different characteristics (different available modes, different mode memory…) Some chips has no label, and the silk-screen prints nothing useful. If you find the boards model, that is a lucky strike. If you find the boards revision, that is an asteroid strike in a well. If you find the boards' user-manual, that is a miracle. Dare I say anything about finding the board's schematic!

Then there is this "next mode memory" made for the next nut case convention. Why would anyone want that!

These "stars on the board" to select modes is another wonder. With an MCU already on board, it would be so easy to design it for 5 pairs of bare-pads so you set your selection. Say 100K resister on first pad-pair for 100%, 30K for 30% on the second pad-pair, short the rest for just two mode or put on a 10K on the third pad-pair for a 10% 3rd-mode support. That kind of selection makes perfect sense to me - instead, we have these silly stars to select predefined modes. Why do I want to select which star just to select which "someone else's choice" I can live with. Why not just make the choice I want.

I suppose, if I want more control, I should get the Nanjg and burn my own ATTINY. The Nanjg feature set is about right, I don't like the blinking at fixed 3Volt, but I like the LO-MID-HI instead of HI-MID-LOW. I am not sure if Nanjg resumes my mode or set to the next one upon power-on. Some advertise it as "next mode memory" and some advertise it as "mode memory" and of course visually they are identical… You try to email the seller for info, good luck! it is like asking a bull to lay an egg.

Like I said, this driver circuit market is like a circus…

[/end rant]

 

[Illum]

If the drivers IC name exists, there exists the chance of someone reverse engineering it and turn that technology into proprietary. Driver boards and associated circuitry is a trade secret. Therefore it is in the suppliers benefit to withhold that information, some to the extent of sanding off the tops of all ICs.

Most of the Nanjg's runs Atmel to begin with, which is impossible to crack by buying an off the shelf part
http://flashlightwiki.com/images/a/a3/Nanjg_105C._600.jpg
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q619/Rufusbduck/1ABoard.jpg

If you want to customize a board, be prepared to make your own. You might feel its of nuisance, but the market doesn't think so. They're making nice enough profit to turn a ton of sites into DIY suppliers for these boards.

 

[hiuintahs]

.........You know, this flashlight driver circuit market is such a circus................

That doesn't surprise me because I don't think they are very much money. As with lots of electronic products, there is so much competition to make things as cheap as possible. That pretty much says you're on your own as far as wanting to know much beyond some basics of using it. I have always been leery of them. That is not to say that there aren't some good ones. As I have tested flashlights since getting a data logging light meter, one of my key interests is to test for efficiency because, since an LED has to be controlled electronically.........there is art in the driver in addition to the look of the light. Since there is many different ways of making a driver circuit, there will be good ones and not so good ones.

 

[SemiMan]

And I as a supplier would want to educate my customers and competitors on how to make my circuits why?

 

[Rick NJ]

And I as a supplier would want to educate my customers and competitors on how to make my circuits why?

Traditionally, all IC manufacturers publish datasheets on their IC so user can use their IC. Publishing their datasheet is not same as "educating the customer to make my circuit".

Unfortunately, some of this are variations (best example that came to mind is TP4056 vs 4056es), one can't know for sure of the specs of the chip's variation. I just can't find the damn datasheet for the 4056es when I needed it about 6 months ago.

Which brings in the second problem. Board manufacturers in this market also doesn't publish their board's specs. Unfortunately, there are so many variations, and lacking revision number, no one selling them knows for sure if this board is 3-mode or 5-mode or whatever. They just have to take other's words for it. So when you buy a particular board, seeing the right chips doesn't mean they are supporting the same things.

 

[Rick NJ]

If the drivers IC name exists, there exists the chance of someone reverse engineering it and turn that technology into proprietary. Driver boards and associated circuitry is a trade secret. Therefore it is in the suppliers benefit to withhold that information, some to the extent of sanding off the tops of all ICs.

Most of the Nanjg's runs Atmel to begin with, which is impossible to crack by buying an off the shelf part
http://flashlightwiki.com/images/a/a3/Nanjg_105C._600.jpg
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q619/Rufusbduck/1ABoard.jpg

If you want to customize a board, be prepared to make your own. You might feel its of nuisance, but the market doesn't think so. They're making nice enough profit to turn a ton of sites into DIY suppliers for these boards.

I suppose including IC names (not sanding them off) makes it easier for other to copy the board. These boards are so simple that most of the function seem to be in an ASIC and a MOSFET. I was hoping those IC's would be customizable (like the the TP4056 again, you can change the sense resister to change the output current); or like adjustable voltage regulators where you can tune the output. That apparently is not the case.

Since most of us hobbyist can contract to have our own IC made, I am beginning to think if I want to do it, getting a Nanjg and roll my own ATTINY code is probably the most flexible route.

Not sure if it is worth the trouble just to "have my own modes".

 

[Rick NJ]

That doesn't surprise me because I don't think they are very much money. As with lots of electronic products, there is so much competition to make things as cheap as possible. That pretty much says you're on your own as far as wanting to know much beyond some basics of using it. I have always been leery of them. That is not to say that there aren't some good ones. As I have tested flashlights since getting a data logging light meter, one of my key interests is to test for efficiency because, since an LED has to be controlled electronically.........there is art in the driver in addition to the look of the light. Since there is many different ways of making a driver circuit, there will be good ones and not so good ones.

[bold added during quoting]

re: "That pretty much says you're on your own as far as wanting to know much beyond some basics of using it."
Something like what mode it supports should be easier to find. The frustration really is when the boards look visually the same, the function it supports can be rather different.
To learn what the electronics do, I usually get a duplicate (or what I think is a duplicate) and start tracing the PCB and mapping the schematic, and substitute parts to try to map what it does and the behavior. I got another LED driver of the same model and looks visually the same, but they work different. That is the frustration.

I suppose in this arena, most are interesting in just swapping boards instead of modifying them. So details about the chips are sorely lacking.

 

[calipsoii]

That other flashlight forum has a userbase that is more actively involved in the documentation and modification of LED converters and firmware. You will likely find the resources you're looking for there.

 

[Illum]

TP4056 is a linear charger though....

If you want something that can output a current proportional to the current across a set resistor you have alot more options, CAT4101... LT3083.... FPF2125...

 

[SemiMan]

Why not start an open-source flashlight driver program?

Unlike AC\DC where you have safety, EMI, regulatory issues ... a flashlight is pretty low risk.

 

[Rick NJ]

TP4056 is a linear charger though....

If you want something that can output a current proportional to the current across a set resistor you have alot more options, CAT4101... LT3083.... FPF2125...

I am not an expert, but I know the difference. I wouldn't have used something like a TP4056 for current control. Nice little charger chip tho.

I was citing it for the similarity in
(a) undocumented versions,
(b) difficulties in locating documentation for the variations, and
(c) the seller doesn't even know the the hell they sold you.

Rick

 

[hiuintahs]

Deleted

 

[Illum]

(c) the seller doesn't even know the the hell they sold you.

:lolsign:

thankfully, most of the boards reflect about 90% of whatever the datasheet presented as a reference design... at least for the TP4056 the board is easy to trace.
I agree though, many sellers don't know the exact specs.

 

[Rick NJ]

:lolsign:

thankfully, most of the boards reflect about 90% of whatever the datasheet presented as a reference design... at least for the TP4056 the board is easy to trace.
I agree though, many sellers don't know the exact specs.

Yeah, the TP4056 is kind of a gem in hiding. I ordered a few to repair a couple of blown boards - not for $ reasons but just to play with them (like adding temperature sense). I had a hell of a time finding 4056es specs and never did find it.

I rather like the TP4056. Until recently, it has been my main 18650 charger. But like most of the TP4056 boards out there, the temperature sense is not implemented. For "first charge after harvest", I use an Arduino+lm35z+relay+TP4056 to do over-temperature cut out. For day-to-day use, I now use an Opus BC3400.

 

[Rick NJ]

Why not start an open-source flashlight driver program?

Unlike AC\DC where you have safety, EMI, regulatory issues ... a flashlight is pretty low risk.

Some pretty good ones are out there already. For flashlight application, I am more interested in tinkering with the electronics at least for now.

 

[hiuintahs]

..........I rather like the TP4056. Until recently, it has been my main 18650 charger. But like most of the TP4056 boards out there, the temperature sense is not implemented. For "first charge after harvest", I use an Arduino+lm35z+relay+TP4056 to do over-temperature cut out. For day-to-day use, I now use an Opus BC3400.

For USB charging, I like the LTC4053. It's a little more accurate than the TP4056........and since I'm more familiar with the PIC microcontrollers, I use one of those to control it .

 

[Microa]

Here enclosed the data sheet of TP4056 in chinese. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vrq19sjdn95x8fr/TP4056.pdf?dl=0

 

[Illum]

Here enclosed the data sheet of TP4056 in chinese. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vrq19sjdn95x8fr/TP4056.pdf?dl=0

English ones is available you know :thinking:
https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Prototyping/TP4056.pdf

 

[Rick NJ]

English ones is available you know :thinking:
https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Prototyping/TP4056.pdf

That is for the TP4056, not the 4056es. That it is so difficult of finding datasheets is what annoys me. I have been spoiled by the easy availability of datasheet from stuff like the TI's LM2596, or even the Chinese XL1509 from my last project (fixing and then modifying a PSU).


Anyhow, just a "close out" note...

I have three types of drivers. With much help from various discussions here and elsewhere, I managed to figure out and made the memory "very short term" for my "cree Q5" flashlight driver and for one of the "cree xml-t6" driver. That two were successes, but the third driver type I got uses a no-name MCU and I gave up on modifying it.

I am resigned to the fact that there is not much else I can do playing with hardware on those boards. The next step I am going to do is to switch to the Nanjg 105c and mess around with the software. Killing the memory is the main thing for me, but, with a "6000mAH" 18650 cell and "4000lm" xml-t6, it is a shame not to have a good driver for it.

(Just in case someone didn't get my joke and begin arguing with me, I put the quotes around the magical numbers... I know those numbers are from magic rather than real.)